And now Liu, anolyze your post and take into consideration what is being said.


To address those exploits, freedoms have to be trimmed.

In every instance you were under your -own- power to utilize or ignore those "exploits" including magic being over powered, completely up to you to have spells that one hit killed, or have your game brighter than a new clear day or darker than the darkest dark. all up to -you-

That's exactly what it is though... hear me out on this one. If there's something that's built into the game that I can do that will make my character more powerful, I naturally want to do that. Making the strongest character I can is part of the fun of playing. But if I go all out to create the strongest possible character I can in Oblivion, the game actually punishes me for it. I can easily become so powerful that there's literally no threat from combat anymore, which basically dumbs down the game into just a bunch of fetch quests and talking with NPCs. The combat is at the core of every RPG, and to have the ability to completely bypass it basically removes a huge chunk of the gameplay. It feels unimmersive and so I have to intentionally restrain myself from playing my character to his fullest in order to actually have fun during combat. It doesn't sit well with me and I think it's poor design, and I don't say that to diss the team but if you sit down and ask yourself, "Do I think they intended for me to be able to make a suit of 100% damage reflection? Or did they not realize that there was enough other DR gear in the game to make this and its just an accident?" (or a similar question for a number of other exploits) I think it'd become pretty obvious that a lot of these exploits really are unintentional and that BGS is striving for a better design than that

Well removing something as cool as custom spell making an deep alchemy just for the sake of fixing something game breaking overpowered isn't really a good way to go. Obviously I support them balancing such things in patches as that just improves the game. But removal is something that should be avoided.

I think his arguments about the difficulty slider and the races are bogus, but you're right about the other ones IMO. I just think there's a better balance between freedom and exploits.

And I guess that's the difference here..... I don't do that in every game. Especially in open-world/free games, or in second or later playthroughs of games.

Sure, in a top-down shooter, or in Quake/Halo/etc, I'll go for the most power. But not in "explore & try things!" games.... in those kinds of games, I like to play around with stuff. That's where the fun is.

I don't feel compelled to min/max (or feel like I'm doing something wrong, or missing out, when I don't) in games like Oblivion.




(...and, based on that other guy's post, I'll have to add "stacking poisons" to the list of power-gaming moves that I didn't know about and have never tried. With all these Skyrim threads complaining about "broken" things in Oblivion, my list of stuff I never knew about just keeps getting longer and longer. )

Yes Im getting more meat on my plate from this thread lol! this is the kind of creativity I am talking about, you can't express creativity without the methods to get started

Give maximum freedom... If you don't like exploits, don't exploit them.

Its an rpg. You shouldn't have to break character to not abuse something.

80% of exploits would be removed with smarter ai. I think everyone can agree that smarter ai would be a good thing. Sitting on a rock wouldn't make you all but god, instead ai would switch to range attacks or jump up to meet you or run away and wait for you to come down. They would also use life detect if they felt there was someone nearby who was trying to conceal themselves, or run away and use traps instead. Things like potion stacking could be removed by adding addiction.

Favoring ballance doesn't mean you want things removed, just as removing exploits doesn't mean less freedom or less content for that matter.

Opinions, I find people who like exploits to be left in (aka bad game design) to be the lowest common denominator.

If you wanna cheat use ~console commands, don't make Bethesda look like crappy devs who leave in a dozen different accidental godmode effects.

I think it mostly depends on your defenition of exploit. Stacking spells in game to create god like effects is not a exploit to me. Its magic. The system was intended to allow people to create their own magical enchantments, and it works perfectly.

If someone wants the option of making themselves completely invisible permanently, they should be able to. And if you think that makes the game cheap or is an exploit, then you should probably not enchant 6 items with the same effect. I thought the chameleon trick was the best thing ever, until I played with it for a half hour and realized that nothing ever attacked me. When I realized how boring this had made the game, I went back to playing the normal way.

TES is a open world game, where players are free to do whatever they want. Taking away options that some people like just because others found them to be an exploit or flaw is silly, especially when it is something that you as a player have to make a decision to use. Its not like the game advertised 100 percent chameleon enchantments. I dont see how these options ruin anyones gameplay simply by being there.

Removing an exploit is not the same as removing content. If npc's had the smarts to just use life detect(or set up traps beforhand just incase) when they felt like/knew someone invisible or at least hard to see was near by, that right there removes the exploit without removing the content. Just because I want a ballanced game doesn't mean that I also want to take away your options.

As for spellmaking, a lot of the most useful spells were just two effects. And with two different hands those spells can still be created, with quite a few varients infact. As for spells which have three or more effects...we'll have to wait and see what Beth does with scrolls. If we can enchant paper to create scrolls again, one would have the ability to make enchanted guides to help the body channel magica into more than one effect per arm. There's a trade off though, which is a good thing, because of the new spell system. If you use the cone ability with the scroll, then both effects have to use that second ability. Also scrolls would be held down by both a skill and soul gems, keeping them from being something just anyone could do.

It depends on what Beth decides to do though, we'll just have to wait an see.

I'm surprised some of the nutjobs havent been vocally opposed to console mode, if its present in skyrim. Since using that to boost gold/stats/equips is the same as exploiting a game mechanic in an unintended way.

Its both amusing and sad to watch people abuse every exploit they can (and go out of their way to look them up online etc, read every min/max guide) then complain that the game is too easy, whereas if they just installed it and played it without cheating it'd be quite challenging. I struggle to imagine how people this lazy/weak willed can get through life in one piece sometimes.

You can't 'accidently' exploit alchemy or enchanting or any of that stuff, and its perfectly balanced if you actually play the game properly rather than treating it like a MMO and grinding all day long.

Why should you care if someone "cheats" in a offline game? How does this affect you anyways? Why should they punish everyone because a few think it should not have as much freedom?

EXACTLY!

Im not all for having exploits in the game, but if they are part of the game mechanics that just so happens to seem 'overpowering' or whatnot, then I think it should just take a bit of restraint from the players. The whole point is that the options are there if you want them. If you want to use enchanting to make yourself a living superhero so be it. If you want to use potions to do the same that is your choice.

You said it best when you said "You cant accidentally exploit" and that is the whole point. The argument that having to show restraint as a player breaks immersion is a very dumb one. What would break immersion for me is if I couldnt enchant something 100 percent simply because "its overpowered".

Exploits are not always an evil thing either. I plan on exploiting the weakness of every enemy in Skyrim. If you are simply using something that is found in the game to make yourself super powerful, its not a gamebreaking exploit in my opinion. And if it was, I simply wouldnt use that option.

Exploits - as in un"real"istic elements of the game that exist purely because of the way the game was built and were not intentional features - have no place in a single player game.

If my character, for example, tries to become a very good fighter/mage or somesuch (relatively likely seeing how he ends up having to be the lone hero), he'd try to find every "exploit" WITHIN the limits of the game lore. Which means that I, as a player, end up doing something that I believe was intended, just to find out it is extremely "overpowered" - then investigate said "feature" more closely to find out it was actually not intentional or not designed with believability in mind.

I want a clear line to be drawn. I want everything that could appear in a book about TES to be possible, and everything else impossible. If we look at The Infernal City for example; levitation is certainly possible, although few people know how to do it. Surviving insane amounts of injuries on the other hand does not seem to be possible. Neither is having 200 potions with you at all times.

In the games, however, all three things were possible, and I had to waste my time trying to draw a line for myself, enjoying the game less. I felt like I wasn't just playing a finished product, but had to constantly change it.

That is why there is absolutely no reason to just ignore existing exploits in a game. "This is a single player game, you don't have to use them" is not an excuse. The moment I am faced with something unbelievable - my disbelief is no longer suspended and thus my immersion is broken, and I'm thrown out of the game world and into the real world again. Thoughts like "this is an exploit" or "this is not an exploit" are strictly out-of-character thoughts, and in my opinion, out-of-character thoughts have no place in a role playing game.

I accidently exploited that duplication thing before it was posted on the oblivion forum... I thought it was a random glitch. I ended up selling 500 akavir katanas.

Now that makes less than no sense, there cannot be balance for as long as tere is game breaking things like being invulnerable. My point here is basically why on earth game developers would create this epic game and put a lot into the gameplay and combat and enemy behaviour etc, if it can be easily bypassed? I'm 99% sure that the chameleon thing has been changed for Skyrim. Again, the same thing when it comes to trophies, why would a game have trophie for completing things if you could just cheat/exploit your way to get the platinum throphy? Why even bother having the trophys there in the first place? I'm truly amazed how many persons want the god mode to be in games, it ruins the whole idea and years of development done on the game by adding such things! A game can have a lot of freedom if they balance it right and I have never and will never think about exploits, 100% resistance, 100% chameleon etc, to be part of freedom. Sure the reflect damage ring can be great and help a lot, but if it hits 100% it ruins the game.

Edit: I think the vanilla game shouldn't have any kinds of exploits and those who want it could buy it as DLC.

I would argue thats more of a glitch than an exploit. Bethesda intended for us to be able heavily enchant multiple items but they didn't intend duplication to be possible.

Using a glitch for your benefit or profit is like the very definition of an exploit.

My point is this. this is TEs the option is your to exploit the magic crafting systme and what not to make yourself seem like a unstopable god or some weakling nobody is yours to make. this is what tes is and always will be. Its your choice. Do you want to punish everyone because you think its not fare to you that they have the choice to do what they want in a single player game?

Explain to me, in great detail if possible, why a theif wouldn't go after full chameleon? Or why and archer wouldn't post up on the highground rock? Or why a mage wouldn't use the strongest spell availabile based on their abilities? When logical paths for characters leads to exploits...there's a problem.

I found full chameleon and a good deal of god spells in my first playthrough. They're not exactly hard to find when you're striving to get the character to be the best they can be and to try out everything. Infact within 15 minutes of playing Oblivion for the first time on my cousons copy I got a troll stuck out of reach after running backwards over a pot hole in a ruin. Should I have just ran around the thing instead of pelting it with arrows to prove that I had willpower or some ballony? Or should I expect some smarter pathing for the ai?

Also, why can't an npc use detect life? Why can't an npc jump to high up places too? Why can we as the player do all these things which the npc's seem to be oblivious to? Why should I have to ignore something simply because of the fact that npc's dont seem to know of its existance? Smarter ai removes a huge amount of exploits. I don't want exploits in a solid game, so I want smarter ai. Are you saying its okay for the npc's to be daft to the magical world around them, and its my responcibility to show willpower and not abuse the system? I think everyone wants smarter ai, and by that logic everyone wants less exploits. I want 100% chameleon, but I also what some guards with a head on their shoulders to use a detect life spell if I make a noise, same with invisablility.

If Im a nutjob for wanting smarter npc ai, then by all means call me the Madgod.

Its an rpg. I get into my characters, see the world through their eyes. I'm a writer, seeing the world through a characters eyes is the only way to write a believable story. Creating a character and then letting them loose in the game world is what an rpg is all about. Why in blue blazes would me, as a mage looking at a spell I just made and tested, think its to strong, and promiss to never use it again?! I'd be thrilled! I'd show it off, sell it to people, rub it in their faces at how good of a mage I am. Or if I was a more reserved mage, I'd save it for those moments when I need to kick some monster butt. Only way I wouldn't use it at all would be if my character is scared of how powerful he has become, and has swarn off all master level magic, and is slow to even use some expert spells.

Mods are there to change the game, and I'm fine with that. Its is an exploit only if you use it as an exploit. My character wouldn't know how to pull up the console comand in the game world. My character however would know how to jump on a rock and shoot an arrow.

Lets limit what we can do in a TES game and remove the crafting system while we are at it remove the moding. Because god forbid someone makes somthing that is overpowerd and only affect that player that did it and has no effect on you in anyway shape or form other than you maybe reading it on the forum.

Modding exists outside the gameworld. I have no problem with all the wonderful things modding can do.

What I have a problem with is npc's who don't know how to use a detect life spell or even how to jump to higher places. Removing exploits doesn't remove content. Adding attiction if you pound the potions or make it so that your body builds up an immunity if you just chug the things wouldn't remove potion stacking, but it would remove the exploit. Giving a few guards who dwell in dark places in the first place a detect life spell they can use if they happen to hear something wouldn't remove 100% chameleon, but it would remove the exploit it is.

Thus making any 100% chameleon pointless. Thus making you have to role play as somthing other than say a master assasin or master theif. You cant be a master if you get cought over half the time because some random person can detect hidden things. FOr each of your propsed "fixes" theres another problem. This is a RPG not a rollercoaster RPG. TES has always been about making your character the way you want to make him/her.


THe point is this. THe choice is yours to make. do you want to be a unstobable person? Do you want to deck yourself out in all kinds of magical things that makes you OP? Turn up the difficulty if you want to balance the game out.

You dont have to agree with it this is the way it is.

Things like Fortify Intelligence potions in Morrowind just were oversights. Same is with Drain Attribute on Self spells, Charm / Fortify Skill for 1 second, and others. Chameleon 100%+ is probably qualifies, but... at least it is not as easy to gather that kind of armor as it was to perform some other tricks.

Instead of removing spell effects and other stuff completely, more thoughtful beta-testing should be involved. Especially with spellcasting (and enchanting). Testers should ask questions like "what if player drains his own skill to 0, and then try to train in that skill?" Answer from game designers should be like this: "oh damn, he will train it up for 1 gold piece, and when draining goes off, his previous skill will go up! Soooo, we have to base training checks on default skill value before any fortify, damage or drain effects!"

Fix, don't cut.

And about "freedom vs. exploits" in general... this is sandbox game. If I want challenge, I will challenge myself either by playing Quake on Nightmare, or by playing Skyrim with self-imposed rules, like "no Destruction magic", "dual shields naked female orc, 3rd person perspective only" and whatever else.