I'm glad someone responded. Too many people keep saying the same thing like broken records.

OT: Perfect example is all I need - Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood has cheats you unlock by completing sections of the main quests/missions. They are the only "exploits" in that game. Once you unlock a cheat, you can use it when you go back to replay that memory, after meeting certain requirements. You must reach full synchronization(i.e. complete it the way the devs intended) and you then can only use it when in replay mode. And once you choose which cheats you want, be it the one that gives you lightning coated weapons and makes all horses unicorns, or the invulnerability cheat, or any others, you get to use them in replay mode while not being able to save your progress. That is designed so you can play with the cheats, have fun, do things you can't "really" do in-game, and generally just screw around. THAT has been the original intention of cheats put into games by developers since the beginning of gaming. It was NEVER to change the game lore, rules, physics, universe, etc.

If you want the duping glitch, complete invisibility and silence, or the ability to scale any height by using floating objects, or any other exploit/glitch/cheat, then Bethesda should follow Ubisoft's example and make a "screw around for fun" mode of Skyrim that ignores the normal rules of the TES universe to let you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Also, there is modding, and the console, which are in place for those that wish to change THEIR own game if they see fit. Those are permitted by Bethesda, so there's no issue. Just like that "cheat mode" for ACB, PC users can screw around all they want. Those mods and console commands are accepted as user created "fan fiction", which will never be part of the canon TES universe. Keep in mind though, the devs are making the vanilla game the same for all platforms, and they're trying to make it flawless consistently BEFORE any fan modding.

Other than that, Bethesda will not advocate breaking the game with glitches/exploits, as they've already stated concerning changes for Skyrim. So, there's a real answer for you that will make everyone happy. :goodjob:

No wonder I love AC so much....the devs are just that much smarter than the average bear, so to speak. So are the Beth devs, they just need to fix some mistakes.



What a great post. How about we remove the rules of physics from our world? We should all be able to fly, teleport, duplicate ourselves and exist as ethereal spirits if we so choose. Well, why don't we just remove all types of weapons from the world too? Because they're clearly unfair and let people kill each other without having to strangle one another. And why be able to progress through life at all? Everyone starts as a baby, and it would be unfair to nature if we could grow by eating plants and animals, and learn by doing things and being taught. Oh, and we shouldn't be able to run or use vehicles either, since all humans should have to walk. :facepalm:

Point: You suggest altering the rules of the game made by the developers in an attempt to justify glitches, inconsistencies, and faults that are abused by players against the intention of those same developers who lovingly crafted a working universe over years of work. Why should they even try at all? Why make limitations and rules for the world in TES? By your logic, TES should become a game set in our world, and have guns, planes, and people invulnerable to any threat, able to do whatever they please at any time, etc., etc., etc. :stare:



Yes, yes, and also.....yes. I found the duping scroll glitch, I found the chameleon exploit, I noticed the faults in the AI that allow less severe exploits as well. All of these, to extremely varying degrees, ruin the experience of the game for all who play it and wish to suspend their disbelief and/or experience fun immersion. I and anyone else who plays for those reasons want Skyrim to avoid those types of faults.

If you are reading this and you realize you only play any TES game to run around like a psychopathic child who has been given unlimited power over the world and can do anything without restriction, then you will not understand the point. You may want to consider investing in some free time to use your imagination if you want to do that. Because Bethesda is making TES V: Skyrim in the same TES universe of all the other TES games. Therefore, it will be as they decide the rules should be, and it must be played according to those rules. I accept that, and I ask that the experience Bethesda is trying to give me and every other customer be consistent with the TES universe they designed, and as fun to play as the other TES games. That is all. The sooner people can accept that fact, the sooner these types of threads will disappear. The game will always have rules, accept it.

Lol, :tes:

TES is not about making any character you want. That's something the salesmen came up with. I've wanted a mole person who could dig holes and complex tunnel systems to live in for the longest time in some rpg like TES, but I can tell you I'm never going to see it. I've seen shovels...so why cant I dig some bit tunnels? What they mean is you can make nearly anyone in the context of this game world. The devs come up with the context of the game world, so its up to the devs.

Chamelion doesnt become pointless, it becomes ballanced. If you heard something close by, and you happened to be guarding something, you would react how? By just ignoring the sound because its probably nothing? Even when Bill your life long co-worker just dropped dead over there and you can still clearly hear something moving behind you?

Chameleon simply removes the chance of them seeing you, it deals not with sound in the slightest. Not every guard is going to know the detect life spell sure, but more than a few should and they should use it. Those who don't should attack based on sound and where they feel like their getting hit. Maybe they'll swing wildly for a while, or maybe they'll run away. I know for fact though that they would not just stand there, maybe moving away slightly after getting hit, silently accepting death.

You said detect life. wich means he can see you. in canves and cities sounds echo. You will be aware of the sound but not from were it came from you would be on edge. Detect life means He knows were you are by simply detecting your life signs or whatever.

What I meant by "making him/her the way you want" is this. If I wanted to make my nord into a unstobable guy with all kinds of enchanted items while using a a hammer simlilar to MJOLNIR then by god I want to make him that way. I wasnt saying I wanted to make a naked mole rat from mars. I was just saying I want to be able to make my guy into a demi god. or be able to make him a knight.who is strong against undead or demons. but knights are not supposed to use magic. they are warriors. Or a mage that uses melee weapons efficently and has medium armor. Or sometime I want to make a character thats some normal person that gets flung into some thing out of his controle. Balance is somthing more of the players choice. THe standing there getting poked in the ass as you described is more of a AI issue than a balance issue..

To keep this brief since we're the only ones here right now:

+10 to ResistanceKnight for understanding the problem with the chameleon exploit and giving a real solution to it. And +10 to Litany of Hate for having a poignant response that basically agrees, while recognizing that the AI is the issue in that instance, and that it SHOULD be changed by Bethesda. Cooperation and discussion among peers leads to solutions for the problems of our world........and our videogames, so it would seem. :foodndrink:

Ya, and a few people who have detect life should know full well to use it. Detect life allows mages to see where those sneaky theives are. Warriors on the other hand may have to try something else or run for it. I for one would love a perk for warrior types to be able to kick up dust in a fight, but we probably won't see something like that. Maybe a warrior or a theif would look for footprints along with using sound.

The ai knowing how to react to the things the player does would remove many of the exploits in the game without removing any content. Smarter ai leads to a more ballanced game. Better pathing removes the ability for casters and archers to just chill on high places without a care in the world. The smarter the ai, the less easy it is to outsmart it. Sitting on a big rock you hop, skipped, and jumped up to shouldn't feel like your cheating, it should feel like a tactical decition. Enemies shoudln't be one dimentional either. Fighting spellswords who can cast spells such as life detect, or thieves who actually use sneak and chameleon or invisability to creap up behind you would ballance the game out a lot more and damper the exploits a lot without taking away any game play. If we can be anything, so should the npc's. Ballance should be the standard of the vanilla game. Its just how a believable world is made. You shouldn't have to step out of character in an rpg to make sure you dont' abuse the system.

Ai can't be perfect, but the smarter the better.



So it would seem. Its nice to find someone who I can go back and forth with, instead of them just getting mad at me for disagreeing. Anyway, on the scale of the games Beth makes, there are going to be exploits. There's just no getting around it. But they, in my mind, shouldn't just shrug them off because with mods the game could be unbalanced anyway. That's true that mods can unballance a game, but that doesn't mean Beth shouldn't try to recreate a believable world in the first place.

Anyway, while Im editing, here's hoping npc's can set up traps, or there are traps in places where we are lead to assume npc's set them up. Such things could signal that somone is inside and tripped a trap, be them invisible or not.

Beautiful. Logic in it's best form. Another +10

All that is needed to counter many exploits is better AI design. All that is needed to stop glitches is some bug removal by Bethesda. And players will still have modding and the console on PC so they can screw with the game to their hearts' content! And more importantly, 360 and PS3 players will get an awesome game free of obnoxious faults and gamebreaking oversights.

Anyone still here that disagrees with that logic?

My Edit: To your above edit points - Yes, there will be exploits, but they aren't unfixable. To my knowledge, there are only 2 or 3 major glitches still in Oblivion that break the whole game, and a handful f serious exploits that affect every player. Those issues could still be fixed via game patches. Bethesda patched Oblivion at least 4 or 5 times in my memory for the 360, and those patches removed tons of issues. With the advancement we'll see with Skyrim, plus Bethesda's bigger team, I would estimate it is possible to have an exploit-free TES V:Skyrim by March 2012.

Additionally, I agree that there should be traps monitored by NPCs. The game will already have more advanced booby traps, so why not have some other traps monitored by enemies? That way there will have to be a chance for them to detect you even if you are invisible and silent. It's a more realistic trap scenario, and would be perfect for ambushes.

:swear:

Exploit and bad AI are 2 differnt things...

Exploit is taking advantage of a bug a glitch to your advantage (cheating and exploiting are the same thing)

Bad AI is just bad AI. everything you do against bad AI is kinda exploiting because they dont realy stand a chance.

WHat some of you are calling for and advocating is that the player is limited in what they can do. Not fixing bugs or eploits just limiting. thus removing the sandboxness of the game.

I concur heartedly

Who mentioned limitations outside of removing exploits? I was under the impression this thread was concering having exploits in the game to give more freedom, or removing them to make the game better.

Perhaps others have misconstrued the point....but I for one have not, and most of the posters on this thread have been arguing between keeping exploits in or removing them.

Why would anyone claim a problem with being limited? Especially since TES is already so open and free by comparison to most "linear" games.....

Everyone keeps calling exploits oversights. Mistakes. Errors from the devs.

Are you people crazy???

Do you KNOW how long they spent making this game? Testing it before release? Do you think they never tried to get 100% charmelion? do you think thats even possible?

These things are left in FOR FUN. Do you people remember that? Everyone talking about never breaking character?

OF COURSE YOU HAVE TO BREAK CHARACTER. In oblivion you'll be walking along and EVERY PERSON in the street will greet you with "WHAT IS IT???". It's breaking character to then not say anything back. You'll walk past some of the dumb A.I conversations and you cant stay in a moody character whilst there is someone going "Huurrr Durrr I saw a mudcrab" "sniff" "bye!" in the background! You can change weapon mid combat. Change armor mid combat. Heal after an hours rest. You could wait an hour after every fight in a dungeon. Archers can sit on a rock and WIN. Theives can rob every house in the imperial city without difficulty. The game is as broken as you let it be!

100% charmelion is just blatently fun, and left in there for when you have finished being serious and want some fun. Same goes for other god like things you can find- its in there for fun!

Seriously, do you not see how rediculous your being by saying "well, we don't want this optional feature in there, so the other half of people will just have to go without I'm afraid!" I bet you'd be tory party if you lived in england.... :facepalm:

and gorbad, that DLC comment better have been a witty joke about horse armor. You ACTUALLY think that people who dont share your view point should PAY to have something that can easily be included in the original game and bother no one??? Yes you keep wining like a [censored] about breaking character and balance and stuff, but quite frankly, I think your clinging to straws. You've said the same point over and over. That it breaks balance. Trophies made useless. Breaking character. These points have been adressed 10 times each in 10 differnt ways and STILL you drag them up like infallible evidence. Perrrlease, sista -fingersnap-

Theres balance then theres let have it so the player can't have any advantage over the AI. Or having to so the AI can detect a person in cover (alot of FPS games do that part) then theres the TO make it balanced the inly peices of armor that can be enchanted is a briastplate and sheild or you cant have more than 2 enchanted armor peices. Balance is something more like I have to work hard to get my nord up to a god like figure wich means probably 100 hours of play to do this. now a eploit like 100 acrobatics and stamina or whatever running is called is a easy thing to exploit a rubber band while you sleep or the q button. and just jump every place you go. fast easy way to level up those or level up sneak by crouching those. and easy way to fix this exploit is to have them not level up at all. or to get more gold just keep resting till the monsters come back then kill them again and repeat. some exploits cant be removed by their nature its just gameplay and its taking advantage of how it is. i can take advantage of the fast travel system and go to all the best dungeons and caves kill all the monsters in them collect the drops stop by a town sell them and keep doing it till I can afford the armor set. A easy way to fix this problem is not be able to fast travel to caves and what not only cities and such like mnorrowind. but that means maybe spendiing 20 minutes or more running around like a idiot till you get to that one cave in the mountains. some things cant be easily fixed without creating more problems.

Uh, no. In a good game, this should be as minimal of a problem as possible. Things that you mentioned, like changing weapons mid-fight or having every NPC treat you as if you were special, should be changed indeed.

To both of you - Exploits=/=Gameplay

Why do you keep arguing over nothing? If you really think the gameplay Bethesda intended is flawed, then don't play a TES game. If you are like most everyone who does play TES games, you'll think there are some flaws that need to be fixed, but the gameplay overall, is fine.

You can endlessly point out how there are game-breaking issues or gameplay that isn't perfect. That will accomplish nothing significant. But what can make a difference is pointing out the biggest, most blatantly problematic and disruptive faults in a game and presenting those complaints to the devs. They listen, and they make improvements. That type of change will never stop. Either you're just being apologists for the game that don't want anyone to expect changes, or you're wasting your breath trying to convince everyone else the game has no flaws so you can play it the way YOU selfishly want in the next installment. Which is it?

EDIT: Based on your continued posts, it appears you've chosen the latter. Selfishly defending the way YOU want to play and attacking anyone who seeks some productive change to the game that you don't agree with. I can see this topic will go nowhere with that type of persistent arguing. I'm very glad you guys don't work for Bethesda. But hey, play (and think) how you want. We'll see how Bethesda thinks when Skyrim comes out.

Uh, yes!!! It should indeed be minimal but ES has ALWAYS been about freedom! Morrowind was exploitable in 100 ways because it was fun, same for oblivion. If you want to never break character in this game, 100 invisiblility (the thing thats bringing actual enjoyment to people) and focus on silly game breaking exploits that acheive nothing, starting with the ones I've mentioned. THEN you can ignore these things that are A) nearly impossible to accidently acheive during the course of play, unlike other exploits that are given to you from the start and do not leave, and B) are in there to make the game enjoyable to people who just want to mess around and have fun.

depends TES has never had a set character guid on how he/she is. You can be an ass and kill every one that mentions a cliff racer. OR be a good boy and visit church while smacking kahjit and argonians around because they are differnt. A good game lets you be who you want to be. am I evil am I good am I just some guy who has no idea what hes doing? all these choices are what makes agood RPG not a rollercoaster with a few track changes. If I want to build my warrior into a god then by god I want to make him into a god (figuratively speaking) If I want to make a master theife that never gets cought then im going to do it.


Also remember that giant hammer in mournhold.. I could lift that thing up and wear daedric armor if I enchanted myself just right. Was fun weailing a gods weapon.

Oh and the jump thing in morrowind I could jump all the way across morrowind in one leap and survive the fall by using slow fall or levitation I was not meant to survive the fall because its just that [censored] fun thing to do in a game. a good game lets you be serious when you want to be and have [censored] fun when you dont.

Once again, not saying that getting rid of 100 chameleon should happen. I'm saying ai should have the brains to know how to combat that. Be it either life detect or visable footprints on the ground or sound. They shouldn't just stand there like a lump on the log. The exploits should go, the content can stay. The ai should get smarter as time passes in the game industry, right? If we can do something, the ai should be able to as well.

A role playing game should allow you to play any character who could logically exist in the game world, not any character you can think of.

It's a SP game, I don't care how other people play because it doesn't affect me.

Spec you read to literaly in what I said.... I was using a bit of sarcasm.

Im saying this if I want to make my chaacter OP after like 100 hours of play I want to make him OP. if I want to use this super awesome sigil I found into a sword then I want to make it into a sword. not have it be "oh but this is olny for a mages staff" I wopuld not want that in the game. If I cant advance my hero in a way that lets me have a advantage over somthing then im going to get frustrated and bored with it as theres no point if im going to basicly be put down by that random badit that can somhow detect me even though hes 25 levels below me and I need to be able to sneak past him to finish this quest. then im just going to say how did he see me when hes so much lower than me and im a master theif in the dark? There are gamebreaking exploits in games yes but you have to remember that TES is freedom to do what you want. out of the box tes is pretty balanced as you actualy have to workyourself uup to a point were you get to be OP then you can move the slider over to make it harder. but you still have to work at it. All games have problems. but just because a few vocal people say this or that is OP change it it should not be changed just because 15 out of 10000 people said its OP. the game is not even out yet its months from being finished and you guys are allready trying to say this or that is OP change it or this or that can be exploted change it. let the game come out bfore you run your mouth. How selfish are you to dicate in my game what is unfair when I think having fun and being able to lets say jump across skyrim in a single bound is not allowed because it affects balance there a 90% chance im going to die from the fall anyways so why would it matter... well I could use a slowfall or levitation spell to keep from dying but that not a balance issue its thinking.

I probably ranted to long and this post is going to be missread or read to literaly when I tryed to use sarcasm but hey I tryed to get my point across.

Edit:
SO if I wanted some exploits in the game just to have fun I can't and now I have to deal with it becase I wanted to visit the testing hall and play around with all the new toys in the game. because I remember alot of crying about the testing hall between 360 owners and PC owners (pc owners basicly told 360 owner to deal with it and stop crying) but stil IF I wanted to exploit the game in such a gross breaking maner then im going to do it. if I complain about how easy the game is to beat then id be pretty damn [censored]. From what you say YOU want no exploits at all in the game when in the games very nature of its being there will be exploits.

I agree that someone good at stealth should be able to sneak past a bandit. That's not an exploit. An exploit however is 100% chameleon and enemies not trying to hit you by randomly swinging their weapon around because they are too stupid.

THats just a [censored] AI system not realy an exploit. even in the gaming industry they dont call that an exploit they call it dumb AI or broken AI.

Don't worry, man, I get your point. I don't decide to rant and swear at people like some other posters here. I don't ask you to stop having an opinion. And I'm not asking you to agree with ME. Bethesda has already said there were problems, and that they're going to fix them. What I say won't change that now. They already listened to hundreds of posts talking about the same issues, and they agreed. Voicing our concerns aloud here is the entire point of this forum. I don't post here to say how great or fun Oblivion was. I post to discuss important issues that will affect Skyrim.

Also, try using a little respect. I have my opinion about how I like games, you have yours. So does om nom nom, so does ResistanceKnight, etc.

If you are tired of the discussion, you can stop at any time. If not, then respond with your opinion, and understand mine. Telling me to stop stating what I think is just rude.

Yep - I am going to look through this thread.

Edit: OK, I deleted a number of posts from the last few pages, less of the personal attacks please, be cool stay with constructive discussion and we may make post limit on the topic.

lol! I love you

but I really could care less honestly...im just no dedicating the energy to do so


as I said before, we're not saying exploits belong in the game, get away from our precious exploits its that they are there people are going to find them, some may or may not be intentional.

What I am saying is I rather my freedom that makes these exploits possible rather than them being addressed because I will lose my freedoms that correlate with that exploit being possible.

You think they reduced the armor pieces availible from morrowind to Oblivion for shix and giggles? no people were complaining about exploiting every armor piece with enchantments and making themselves gods...

You think the spell system from morrowind to Oblivion was undercutted and made the way it was for shix and giggles? no people were complaining that they could make uber powerful spells

You think level scaling was put in for shix and giggles by bad bad bethesda? no people were complaining how easy it was to become a god later in game and have no challenges


You think levitation was removed JUST because cities now existing in seperate world spaces in oblivion? lol no people were complaining how easy it was to just pop in the air, take out archers and then just rain hell on npcs.

you think our wide choice of weaponry was reduced just for the hell of it? nope people were complaining how some weapons like spears were too easy to use or made fights simple or that -they- never used it.

Its the fault of the players for being hypocrits and Bethesda PARTIALLY for addressing the "exploits" the way they did.


Now there is potential that we can't make a killing with potions anymore, and because arrows damage was amped up because people complained about pincussion arrows in Oblivion, in Skyrim now for no apparent reason Arrows are scarce, we probably wont even be able to levitate STILL because it would allow us to bypass dangers going up a mountain or being a god to everything except dragons. -that- is what I speak of, Im not saying Exploits are a good thing, if you don't want to use them, then don't use them.


this is why I wish Bethesda didn't listen as hard, or atleast listened a little bit differently to her fans so the panic balances that people made seem so dire don't repeat in Skyrim like they did in Oblivion