OT: Perfect example is all I need - Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood has cheats you unlock by completing sections of the main quests/missions. They are the only "exploits" in that game. Once you unlock a cheat, you can use it when you go back to replay that memory, after meeting certain requirements. You must reach full synchronization(i.e. complete it the way the devs intended) and you then can only use it when in replay mode. And once you choose which cheats you want, be it the one that gives you lightning coated weapons and makes all horses unicorns, or the invulnerability cheat, or any others, you get to use them in replay mode while not being able to save your progress. That is designed so you can play with the cheats, have fun, do things you can't "really" do in-game, and generally just screw around. THAT has been the original intention of cheats put into games by developers since the beginning of gaming. It was NEVER to change the game lore, rules, physics, universe, etc.

If you want the duping glitch, complete invisibility and silence, or the ability to scale any height by using floating objects, or any other exploit/glitch/cheat, then Bethesda should follow Ubisoft's example and make a "screw around for fun" mode of Skyrim that ignores the normal rules of the TES universe to let you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

I accidently exploited that duplication thing before it was posted on the oblivion forum... I thought it was a random glitch. I ended up selling 500 akavir katanas.

Im not 100% sure, but I am quite sure that both chameleon and invisibility were not supposed to work the way they did, because the user manual tells you on the spell effect section that enemies can still hear you, on both chameleon and invisibility. Why wasn't it so in the game?

Now why would developers put exploits in a game in the first place?

I want my games balanced and well thought through and I simply cannot understand why someone would want the """freedom""" of cheating a game. Those who think cheats should exist have yet to give us a single good reason why they should be in the game.

Once again, not saying that getting rid of 100 chameleon should happen. I'm saying ai should have the brains to know how to combat that. Be it either life detect or visable footprints on the ground or sound. They shouldn't just stand there like a lump on the log. The exploits should go, the content can stay. The ai should get smarter as time passes in the game industry, right? If we can do something, the ai should be able to as well.

You think they reduced the armor pieces availible from morrowind to Oblivion for shix and giggles? no people were complaining about exploiting every armor piece with enchantments and making themselves gods...

You think the spell system from morrowind to Oblivion was undercutted and made the way it was for shix and giggles? no people were complaining that they could make uber powerful spells

You think level scaling was put in for shix and giggles by bad bad bethesda? no people were complaining how easy it was to become a god later in game and have no challenges

You think levitation was removed JUST because cities now existing in seperate world spaces in oblivion? lol no people were complaining how easy it was to just pop in the air, take out archers and then just rain hell on npcs.

you think our wide choice of weaponry was reduced just for the hell of it? nope people were complaining how some weapons like spears were too easy to use or made fights simple or that -they- never used it.

Now there is potential that we can't make a killing with potions anymore, and because arrows damage was amped up because people complained about pincussion arrows in Oblivion, in Skyrim now for no apparent reason Arrows are scarce, we probably wont even be able to levitate STILL because it would allow us to bypass dangers going up a mountain or being a god to everything except dragons. -that- is what I speak of, Im not saying Exploits are a good thing, if you don't want to use them, then don't use them.

NPC's didnt hear period...sure your foot steps maybe alerted them, but that was only bandits and npcs in combat, if you come up to a non hostile NPC invisible..they aren't in combat ready stance so they don't count for "hearing"


Devs don't put exploits in the game, people find what devs missed in the case of AC those were cheats or things for shix and giggles.

your game will be balanced so long as you don't utilize the exploits

It seems that preventing exploits is often sited as a reason to limit players' options, just look at the people arguing that levitation shouldn't be in the game because in past games it could be exploited (An exploit which as I've pointed out only comes from bad AI, if the AI is terrible, the solution is not to remove features to artificially force players to play in a way that makes the bad AI a threat, it's to improve the AI.) when the issue of how many armor slots the game should have comes up, people might say that having seperate pauldrons in Morrowind was unbalancing (Because as we all know, it was completely impossible to make 100% chameleon armor in Oblivion.) But I don't feel that freedom and game balance really need to conflict, and when it comes to adressing exploits, altering a feature to make it less overpowered is generally a much better solution than removing it entirely.

Still, I'm in favor of the developers trying their best to make the game as balanced as possible, if you're going to say that balance doesn't matter in a single player game, you might as well say Bethesda should add a spell that instantly kills every enemy in sight without any difficulty or negative impact on the player, after all, balance doesn't matter in single player games, right? Therefore, we can have features as broken as we want, if you don't like them, you don't have to use them. Also, there should be a sword that does 1000 damage, has zero weight and never breaks right outside the starting area, and there should be an amulet in the game that enables god-mode whenever you put it on. In the end, freedom is good, but there must be some limit to it at times, because if there's a feature that basically amounts to enabling god-mode in normal gameplay, that just makes the game too easy, and you can't just say "If you don't like it, don't use it.". Sure, I don't need to abuse alchemy in Morrowind, but I still know I can do it, and as a result, I feel like I'm just artificially limiting myself, which makes the "challenge" that comes from playing that way seem superficial. I want to play the the game Bethesda actually made, not what I'm pretending it is, and I want to be able to play the game naturally without needing to artificially limit myself at every turn, but that isn't always an option, because sometimes, the game is insultingly easy if I DON'T artificially limit myself.

Sometimes reading these forums gives me the impression that fans would be perfectly happy with their being a full suit of all the highest level armor in the game with absurdly strong enchantments in the starting area, and if anyone criticized this for being game breaking, they'd say "Don't like it, don't use it."

snip

No one heard you in oblivion Mk,

The highlighted section of your post makes less than no sense, a game cannot be balanced if there is game breaking exploits in it.

But.....thats what I said

how does it not make sense? NPC's aren't using the exploits? they are working as intended, its the player who's the unbalancing factor if they use the exploits :confused:

And gorbad, that DLC comment better have been a witty joke about horse armor. You ACTUALLY think that people who dont share your view point should PAY to have something that can easily be included in the original game and bother no one?

That is exactly what I said and that the manual said otherwise, not sure why you then said how or how it didn't work in actual gameplay, the point is it didn't match the manual right?

Now note what you said, that as long as I don't use them, the game is balanced. Balance basically means that no matter what a person does it will be balanced to other things he might do, like balance as in a warrior is exactly as good as a thief and a mage, but not in the same way. Balance cannot exist however if exploits exist because those who use it gain advantages that those who do differently do not get, thus your point makes no sense.

The games are balanced fine. I played several games through Morrowind before I found an exploit, and only because I looked for one on the internet.

How can people use an exploit and complain about how they ruined their own game? Thats just like people getting mad because they modded doom and gave their weapons infinite ammo, then getting mad at id software for letting them do it. If you don't like the exploits, then don't look for them.

All of the so called cheats require at least a little time and effort on the part of the player. If that effort is expended, they are clearly playing to their desires. You are much more likely to alienate players by limiting the ways in which they can play than by giving them a little too much leeway in their choices.

Everyone keeps calling exploits oversights. Mistakes. Errors from the devs.

Are you people crazy???

Do you KNOW how long they spent making this game? Testing it before release? Do you think they never tried to get 100% charmelion? do you think thats even possible?

These things are left in FOR FUN. Do you people remember that? Everyone talking about never breaking character?

OF COURSE YOU HAVE TO BREAK CHARACTER. In oblivion you'll be walking along and EVERY PERSON in the street will greet you with "WHAT IS IT???". It's breaking character to then not say anything back. You'll walk past some of the dumb A.I conversations and you cant stay in a moody character whilst there is someone going "Huurrr Durrr I saw a mudcrab" "sniff" "bye!" in the background! You can change weapon mid combat. Change armor mid combat. Heal after an hours rest. You could wait an hour after every fight in a dungeon. Archers can sit on a rock and WIN. Theives can rob every house in the imperial city without difficulty. The game is as broken as you let it be!

100% charmelion is just blatently fun, and left in there for when you have finished being serious and want some fun. Same goes for other god like things you can find- its in there for fun!

Perrrlease, sista -fingersnap-

If I want to exploit a game I should be able to. Don't ruin our fun because you don't like it. if you don't like it, don't use it. I can understand fixing an exploit if it leads to game breaking glitches, but stuff that just makes the game easier or lets you do stuff you shouldn't, shouldn't be messed with.

Im glad to see there are still people with sense. Obviously many TES players have far too little willpower to not use 'exploits'. Lets be clear however, enchanting 5 - 6 items with the same effect was NOT an exploit. It was enchanting. How you chose to use it was your decision. It wasnt a flaw or something that was overlooked, it was intentionally put in the game for this very reason. If you werent supposed to be able to 'stack' magic effects you wouldnt be able to.

I find this no diferent than someone saying NO GAME SHOULD HAVE CHEATS since they can 'break' gameplay. The problem isnt the cheats, its weak minded people who cant help themselves but use them, and then have the nerve to complain about it. The argument makes no sense. And lets be clear about something, taking away ANYTHING that people use IS removing options from the game. If I want to be permanently invisible I should be able to.

Can someone explain the difference between cheating and exploits? Matter of fact, dont even bother trying.

Freedom is not stepped on if the ai knows how to combat 100% chameleon. Removing exploits does not remove gameplay.

In an rpg, you play a role, for this example an archer. Common sense leads one to use the highground when ever possible as an archer, right? However, do to less than steller ai pathing common sense becomes an exploit. Should jumping be removed so we can't get up there? No. Should I avoid common sense and step out of character to make sure I don't abuse the poor system? No. Ai should be smart enough to handle the things the player does.

It works the same with 100 chameleon. Its not an exploit if the ai is smart enough to know how to react to it. Is it freedom restricted in asking for ai who know how to combat chameleon characters? Potion stacking could be handled by adding addiction if you simply just chug the drink. Its not like I lack the willpower to not abuse the system and I actively scower the interwebs to find every last one I can abuse. I just feel the system could act in a more believable way, instead of punishing or ignoring common sense. All I'm saying is a mage should know how to us a simple detect life spell.

Ai can't be perfect I know, but it should darn well try to be. Smarter ai removes a large amount of ingame exploits from the world, and I think everyone agrees that smarter ai is a good thing. All knowing? No, but smarter? Yes.

And for the upteenth time, modding exists outside the game world. The archer doesn't know how to pull up the console command. The archer using their common ingame sense wouldn't know that he could create an unlimited amount of arrows. I'm fine with all the wonderful things modding allows. But it exists outside the game world as an addition for pc gamers who wish to edit the game, so its not really an exploit. I agree that people who mod themselves infinate ammo and then call that an exploit are not right in the head. Its not an ingame feature a character would be aware of, so it doesn't really cout as a true exploit for me.

Now explain why in heavens name a theif who could use full chameleon would choose not to?

....

Just a general question to anyone out there. You ever get the feeling no one ever listens to you? Cause man...this thread has really been something.

As it stands TES Skyrim will be an rpg. In an rpg, you take up a role you create. Be that role as an archer or a warrior, or someone who has a deep dark past you created on your own, you pick a role. And when in that role, you shouldn't have to leave until you turn the rpg off. You should see the world through the eyes of your role, react how your role would. It's an rpg after all.

Now explain why in heavens name a theif who could use full chameleon would choose not to? You shouldn't have to break from your character to make sure you don't abuse the system. Does that mean because I want the exploit of 100% chameleon removed I by default want 100% chameleon in general to be removed? No. I want ai smart enough to know how to combat someone with full chameleon. Be that with magic or might, they should at least do something.

A cheat is somthing that exists outside the game world that the character would have no knowledge off. An exploit is something that exists in the game world that a character would have knowledge of, but when used it instead gives the character an extreme and undue advantage that it shouldnt.

Sure AI is a good point, which has been brought up plenty.

But you can play the games several times without finding an exploit, unless you consider jumping on things an exploit, which it never really was its just been a bad AI.
And even then, what if enemies jump on things to chase after you, and I level acrobatics to 100, I expect to be able to jump on something out of reach of other NPCs, and its not an exploit, its how I chose to play, and I worked hard to do it.

When people complain about exploits, they don't complain that they used them, like the perma spells and super potions of Morrowind, they complain that they were given the option, as if Intelligence improving your potions was a bug. Or that killing Dagoth Ur without doing the main quest was also a bug. Those (other than the perma spells) were put in the game purposefully, and people complained because they were given freedom.

So while there may be somethings to complain about, the AI, or bugs (perma spells and duplication), people like to say that super potions in Morrowind ruined their game, and some people even complain the ability to mod ruins their game. Those are choices the player made to alter their experience. So I say exploits (that are supposed to be there) should exist. Maybe they should try and balance it some, at some point it doesn't matter how intelligent you are two magical ingredients can only provide so much magnitude of an effect (diminishing returns). But they shouldn't remove things, such as the drastic changes to the enchanting system in Oblivion, just to balance something that can be abused if people try hard enough.

Some "exploits" exist because they make sense, such as 100% chameleon, or "jumping" (who considers that to be an exploit?!), or certian spells, or super potions. Some exploits are bugs, such as duplication or perma spells. And most exploits take looking up to find, most don't occur during normal gameplay. And even if you found an exploit, and its making your game less fun, stop using it. I found 100% chameleon, and I used it for five minutes because it was boring.

How does the thief know there is 100% chameleon? The character doesn't. Whether or not you do doesn't matter when role-playing. It takes effort to even get it. The chances of your character stumbling across it are slim as it is.