[Jade Muggeridge]

Actually, while it's still on my mind. For those people who say that fast travel is optional.

I want to mention the fact that, when I played Oblivion, I didn't use fast travel once. Which meant that I had a parade of minotaurs trailing behind me whenever I stopped at any city/dungeon/inn.

If I didn't want to waste my life stopping to fight every stupid monster, it was always a battle against 6 whenever I stop to explore or stop to pick up potions or reach my destination. It's one of the reasons I can't play Oblivion anymore.

Saying the fast travel is optional is not valid unless they make exploring fun again in TESV. The wilderness was devoid of anything interesting to discover, but full of obnoxious monsters, unrealistically placed at 5 foot increments, like clockwork.

I really believe that anyone who says "it's optional" always used the fast travel. Because if they tried playing the game without fast travel they'd end up frustrated. Because travel in Oblivion is frustrating. So, when they say "it's optional" they really have no idea what they're talking about, no offense. Because if they've never chosen the option to walk instead of fast travel, then they don't have the experience to form an educated opinion.

Just my two cents, since things have been mild for a while now.

[Jonathan Montero]

Actually, while it's still on my mind. For those people who say that fast travel is optional.

I want to mention the fact that, when I played Oblivion, I didn't use fast travel once. Which meant that I had a parade of minotaurs trailing behind me whenever I stopped at any city/dungeon/inn.

If I didn't want to waste my life stopping to fight every stupid monster, it was always a battle against 6 whenever I stop to explore or stop to pick up potions or reach my destination. It's one of the reasons I can't play Oblivion anymore.

Saying the fast travel is optional is not valid unless they make exploring fun again in TESV. The wilderness was devoid of anything interesting to discover, but full of obnoxious monsters, unrealistically placed at 5 foot increments, like clockwork.

I really believe that anyone who says "it's optional" always used the fast travel. Because if they tried playing the game without fast travel they'd end up frustrated. Because travel in Oblivion is frustrating. So, when they say "it's optional" they really have no idea what they're talking about, no offense. Because if they've never chosen the option to walk instead of fast travel, then they don't have the experience to form an educated opinion.

Just my two cents, since things have been mild for a while now.

1. Those annoying monsters that ruin exploration are called cliffracers. Enemy creatures are far more spread out in Oblivion. If anything, I can't stand going across Vvardenfell because, quite literally, I commonly have at least 2 or 3 cliffracers in sight, I get attacked by them even in towns(when teleporting to the nearest temple), and over half the time, cliffracers seem to get stuck because they hover high in the sky above me and don't seem to be getting any close to descending, but they still follow me around(still move horizontally). They're everywhere, and I have to deal with them if I want to explore.

2. I know you either haven't played Oblivion, haven't explored in Oblivion, of have explored in all the wrong places in Oblivion if you believe there is nothing interesting to find. I don't need to say more than that.

I'm willing to find solutions in the form of comprising, but what does this "not optional" argument have to do with compromising, exactly?

[SWagg KId]

1. Those annoying monsters that ruin exploration are called cliffracers. Enemy creatures are far more spread out in Oblivion. If anything, I can't stand going across Vvardenfell because, quite literally, I commonly have at least 2 or 3 cliffracers in sight, I get attacked by them even in towns(when teleporting to the nearest temple), and over half the time, cliffracers seem to get stuck because they hover high in the sky above me and don't seem to be getting any close to descending, but they still follow me around(still move horizontally). They're everywhere, and I have to deal with them if I want to explore.

Cliff Racers are the ONLY problem in Morrowind. Everything else I can easily avoid, and doesn't chase me forever. I could also easily kill any form of wildlife from level 5. In Oblivion, EVERYTHING relentlessly chased me. bears, wolves, ogres, goblins, imps, etc. And they leveled with me. I could never brush them off with a flick of my sword. I had to battle forever. Sure, I could use a horse, but that kinda defies the purpose of lowly exploring. And, I can still be chased by a bunch of monsters. Especially wolves.

Also, if you believe Cliff Racers to be the biggest blight of Morrowind, that I contantly run into and constantly get killed by, you obviously haven't played Morrowind. Cliff Racers are nowhere near as bad as people make them out to be. Sure, they did have a large spawn rate, but not so bad as to ruin exploration. The only time I would have a few Cliff Racers is when I'm in some depths of the Wilderness where people are rarely found. Mostly in the Ashlands, Red Mountain and Molag Mar. Everywhere else, they're just as spawned as every other creature. I know I never noticed a lot of Cliff Racers in the Bitter Coast or Ascadian Isles.

2. I know you haven't played Oblivion if you believe there is nothing interesting to find. I don't need to say more than that.

There are a few interesting things to find, but nowhere near the vast amounts they could have had. Morrowind by far exceeded what they had in Oblivion. Even the flora. Everything in Oblivion seemed to be copy and pasted. There was hardly any variation. Morrowind had things everywhere, and everything was unique and different. (Make sure you're not using mods when you're explaining about Oblivion's uniqueness)

Anyway, I had to reply to that, it would have burned my soul if I hadn't, but this is getting off topic. Realise that those of us against Oblivion's method don't like what it does, just as we're realising you don't like aspects of Morrowind's system. We can't come to a comprimise when you're totally refusing to realise the issues we have.

[Samantha hulme]

Cliff Racers are the ONLY problem in Morrowind. Everything else I can easily avoid, and doesn't chase me forever. I could also easily kill any form of wildlife from level 5. In Oblivion, EVERYTHING relentlessly chased me. bears, wolves, ogres, goblins, imps, etc. And they leveled with me. I could never brush them off with a flick of my sword. I had to battle forever. Sure, I could use a horse, but that kinda defies the purpose of lowly exploring. And, I can still be chased by a bunch of monsters. Especially wolves.

Also, if you believe Cliff Racers to be the biggest blight of Morrowind, that I contantly run into and constantly get killed by, you obviously haven't played Morrowind. Cliff Racers are nowhere near as bad as people make them out to be. Sure, they did have a large spawn rate, but not so bad as to ruin exploration. The only time I would have a few Cliff Racers is when I'm in some depths of the Wilderness where people are rarely found. Mostly in the Ashlands, Red Mountain and Molag Mar. Everywhere else, they're just as spawned as every other creature. I know I never noticed a lot of Cliff Racers in the Bitter Coast or Ascadian Isles.


There are a few interesting things to find, but nowhere near the vast amounts they could have had. Morrowind by far exceeded what they had in Oblivion. Even the flora. Everything in Oblivion seemed to be copy and pasted. There was hardly any variation. Morrowind had things everywhere, and everything was unique and different. (Make sure you're not using mods when you're explaining about Oblivion's uniqueness)

Anyway, I had to reply to that, it would have burned my soul if I hadn't, but this is getting off topic. Realise that those of us against Oblivion's method don't like what it does, just as we're realising you don't like aspects of Morrowind's system. We can't come to a comprimise when you're totally refusing to realise the issues we have.

I just have one more thing to say. That everything levels with you statement is also untrue. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Creatures Also, yes, cliffracers were that bad. Rats, wolves, bears, mountain lions, mud crabs, slaughterfish, land dreughs, spriggans, minotaurs, will-o-the-wisps, trolls, and imps are easily dispatched by the powerful, but are not nearly as common as cliffracers, and they don't get stuck in the air above me. In Morrowind the only peaceful wild animals are scribs and netches. In Oblivion, they are deer and horses. Speaking of leveling affecting creatures, beasts commonly appear in blighted or diseased forms at higher levels and cliffracers seem to get more common at higher levels. Slaughterfish always attack in Morrowind(can't go in water without being attacked by one). In Oblivion, that is not the case. Cliffracers commonly attack in Morrowind. No enemy in Oblivion is as common as it. What's my alternative in Morrowind? I can't even escape the screeching beasts in towns. In Oblivion, fast-travel can get me away from its not-nearly-as-tedious beasts and the only enemies that can catch up to a horse are wolves and mountain lions, which are both very weak to anyone above level 20. In Oblivion, I have horses and a decent running speed with which I can outrun my enemies, but in Morrowind, I don't. By the way, Bethesda admitted that they placed far too many cliffracers into Morrowind.

Oblivion doesn't have enemies-while-travelling issues as bad as Morrowind does, despite having fast-travelling. I will beg Bethesda to never let anyone who thinks cliffracers were less annoying than the creatures of Oblivion to design TES V's real-time travelling areas. Cliffracers svcked.

For the next fast-travel system, just make sure those demons don't return in any way, shape, or form, and I will be happy.

[Rachel Cafferty]

There is no need to fight about it.

There is no doubt that a lot of forum dweller are disappointed at a lot of changes in oblivion, and one of them is the way traveling was implemented, (by the way why did they not implement morrowind style travel as they had the stables ready beside each town, and they only needed to add a few new dialogs lines to a few characters to implement that).

And some other forum dwellers say that morrowind style travel was harder and oblivion's implementation was easier for the players. That's correct, so, I think that the best solution is to supply both and add an option to enable/disable the oblivion style in the menus or configuration files, as the other method could not bother anyone, so does not need disabling in menus.

There is a man sitting on a chair beside that stable and you can talk to him and he offers his traveling service, you can say no and use the map markers to jump to the destination, ok, even those service offering lines can be disabled as well. :rolleyes:

As for most of the decisions in oblivion, the map marker style was easier to implement, as it did not need a story behind that, and most important of all there was no need for the darned extra voice acting, but I think that the extra effort would make the majority of the players happier.

[off topic] I think that most of the problems was a by-product of the decision to add full voice acting to the game, as it handicapped the quest builders a lot and wasted a lot of time, and filled a lot of space, and used a lot of budget that could be used a lot better. [/off topic]

[Danielle Brown]

Maps look good in the game, and they aren't terribly time consuming to put out. Considering that, I say they make a ton of the maps and integrate them into the game world.

I'd firstly suggest that you'd have to buy all the maps you were going to use, as well as the compass. They had a wet compass in Redguard, so we know they can be items. Next, you'd need to buy the map or get the guide to the town if you wanted anything zoomed in. Buildings wouldn't have mini-maps or anything, they weren't tourist friendly. For more detailed maps of places outside the city, you'd have to talk up scouts and local mapmakers to get a map of the smaller piece of terrain, and to put landmarks and locations on there. As always, you can either pay for information about the area, or you can work for it with exploration.

Using the maps this way, you can also use them to fast travel. The map interface should be in http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/fcry2mapbig.jpg so you don't have to be in a menu to operate. The animation to bring those out looked alright too.

To fast travel with them, you'll need to be able to navagate the paths, edges, districts, nodes and landmarks. The more you know, the better you'll be able to fast travel. The Outdoorsman skill will let you be better at dead reckoning and fast travel off the roads, while better Equestrianism skill will let you evade fast travel traps along the way.

When you get a quest from someone, they'll point to where it is on your most relevant map and you'll mark it. None of that quest marker business, so you can't mark people with it. Only locations.

As a standard, many maps need to be wrong, or just flat out lies. In this time, the boundaries are only somewhat agreed upon. Disputes over borders are still a common thing, and maps are one of the best ways to lay claim to something. Each noble would likely have his own type of map for his or her interests, and make their subjects see it their way. There shouldn't really be an official map of what is what in the world, and the overall map needs to look quite a bit like . It shows the major cities, a couple major roads, and the basic outlines of topography, but it's a pretty sparse map.

Then, maps by membership. Chances are that they aren't going to map every wayshrine of Arkay on a merchant's travel map, so you'd have to talk to the right people. Find someone in the town who worships Arkay, and don't forget that the society is henotheistic. Believing in Mara doesn't mean you give a crap about Kynareth. Getting maps as rewards again will be a great thing.

Lastly, you can sell locations to people. If you find an unmarked trade route, you can sell that info to some bandits. If you find out where the Baron's summer getaway house is, you can tell his enemies, or for a lesser price the Thieves guild. The guild might resell the info to the Baron's enemies, and clean house once they're through with the place. You guys might remember in Daggerfall being able to choose how you finish quests by taking evidence to someone related to the quest for a different outcome. There was a time Helseth was having you deliver a message for him, but you could take it to Barenziah for her approval and reward. You'll also remember revealing the mine to the elf in Vivic city in Morrowind, and that he gave you a daedric weapon for it. That's the kind of deals you should be able to work out. It's up to you to find and sell what they might be interested in.

[maddison]

I like the ingame map idea but bringing modern hud elements inside that map is not a great idea. It should stay authentic, imo.

[butterfly]

Never saw cliffracers as a problem.

@ seti: do me a favor. Walk from Bruma to chorrol in Oblivion. Then walk from Ald-ruhn to Balmora in Morrowind and you will see the difference. By level three, I'm wacking cliffracers to death in 1-3 hits, and if I choose not to fight them and run, they'll give up chasing me.

In Oblivion, everything takes forever to kill because they level with you unrealistically and if you decide to run, they'll never give up chasing you, so you HAVE to fight eventually no matter what you do. So unrealistic, so frustrating, so very the opposite of fun.

I never understood these wolves that would rather starve to death, chasing me to the ends of Nirn, rather than just find some slower prey. Their ambition is self-destructive.

P.S. I don't play RPGs to fight. If I'm looking for a fight, I'll go outside and start throwing water balloons at the jerks on motorcycles. Never done that once in my whole life, which should show you how interested I am in combat: not at all.

[Laura-Jayne Lee]

P.S. I don't play RPGs to fight. If I'm looking for a fight, I'll go outside and start throwing water balloons at the jerks on motorcycles. Never done that once in my whole life, which should show you how interested I am in combat: not at all.

That's an odd situation to be in with the elder scrolls, considering Morrowind had 22/30 skills related to combat and Oblivion had 18/21.

[biiibi]

That's an odd situation to be in with the elder scrolls, considering Morrowind had 22/30 skills related to combat and Oblivion had 18/21.

But, still I manage to avoid fighting in Morrowind for the majority. It's all about how you approach it. That's why it's my favorite game in general.

It's also why Daggerfall is my favorite for character creation (well, one of the reasons). But, like in Oblivion, it's pretty impossible to avoid combat in Daggerfall unless you stick to Thieves Guild and nothing else.

But Morrowind is the only game I know of that truly let's you pick your own style. I pile on all 8 of those non-combat skills, sometimes, and make my non-combat character. Hire a companion from a companion mod to be my bodyguard between cities ^_^

[Brentleah Jeffs]

The way I look at it, making fast travel optional won't solve anything. Walking the roads and exploring the world yourself is tedious in both TES games that I have played, maybe rightfully so. However once you make enough money in Morrowind there is absolutely no incentive to actually travel and explore the wilderness other than coloring your map and quests that require you to go to dungeons. None of the creatures you encountered had anything worth the effort involved in drawing your weapon/spell and killing them. They're annoying, and a constant reminder that you should have taken a silt strider or used a Mage's Guild Guide and saved real life time and effort. The fees are so cheap, you'll always be in the position to have done so.

In Oblivion, there's not even a choice. You can fight your way to Chorrol and maybe get some armor along the way assuming you don't die. Or you can fast travel, and that 15 minute trip is instant. Less risk and less reward, but the most important factor is that you didn't waste any real life time doing something which could have been instantaneous considering how once you discover the dungeons near the cities (Rockmilk cave, Dzonot Cave, the Ayleid ruin across the imperial city, etc) which can supply you with the same armor you would have gotten had you made a long journey to some fort in between two cities, there's no reason to go so far. Just sell the extra loot, wait 3 days (which shouldn't really take that long should you actually use the wait/rest feature), go back to the dungeon and repeat.

I would say that in both games, you're punished for not fast traveling, but that in Morrowind you'll actually have to walk that last part of the trip to your destination from whatever city it is nearest to. The fees are so small, they might as well be free. Dungeons reset after 3 days in Oblivion so you can just repeatedly go to the same ones over and over again.

My suggestion: Make fast travel by boats/other transportation as in Morrowind. The prices should be high enough to almost force you to walk at the earlier stages of the game, but not so much that you'll never use it to save money. The wilderness should have locations/landmarks that generally have better loot the farther you get from the cities and roads.

[Amysaurusrex]

And put more in-between stuff besides angry monsters.

[Kat Stewart]

And put more in-between stuff besides angry monsters.

I would not mind seeing abandoned towns with no quests tied to em, unique creatures that bare no resemblance to any creature in game that aren't inherently aggressive, and cults worshiping random things like water.

[Ricky Rayner]

Never saw cliffracers as a problem.

@ seti: do me a favor. Walk from Bruma to chorrol in Oblivion. Then walk from Ald-ruhn to Balmora in Morrowind and you will see the difference. By level three, I'm wacking cliffracers to death in 1-3 hits, and if I choose not to fight them and run, they'll give up chasing me.

You must have had some nice cliff racers then, or must have been good at losin them. The only times I was able to lose them is if I killed them, got them stuck in trees, or if I outran them, and you did have to be pretty quick to outrun them; and they were pretty numerous once you crossed over the mountains by balmora and caldera.

[Carlos Rojas]

And put more in-between stuff besides angry monsters.

For real! We need unique landscapes in between cities to make it worth walking!

[Chloe :)]

Oh I have some cliffracer horror stories, and they can annoy me when they take forever to descend (but generally I have a crude sparkbolt ring or something for that).

But generally I see it first, it's one spear in the face and I'm on my way. It seems that some people get cliffracered to death any time they step outdoors.

I have been using the same play disc since 2002, and now that I think of it, I kind of remember cliffracers being more of a menace on xbox. So perhaps you're right and I do have very mild cliffracers.

The only region I ever seem to get mauled by hordes of cliffracers is that area southeast of red mountain, between Balmora and Sadrith Mora. But I love that. It's the dangerous region. I traverse it at level one with each of my characters just to get some hair on their chest.

EDIT: If you want to continue discussing cliffracers with me, I have opened the http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1106642-cliff-racer-thread/ for such a discussion.

[Sxc-Mary]

You must have had some nice cliff racers then, or must have been good at losin them. The only times I was able to lose them is if I killed them, got them stuck in trees, or if I outran them, and you did have to be pretty quick to outrun them; and they were pretty numerous once you crossed over the mountains by balmora and caldera.

You can find a door, (like cave door) and enter, and those dumb cliffracers would not be able to follow you), and those cave entrances were mostly peaceful if you did not go deeper, and wait for a few seconds and return out and kill the cliff racer that might have remained outside, and continue.

But I don't know and maybe I used a mod, but in my games those cliff racers were not aggressive if they were not blighted or attacked first.

[James Rhead]

I've rarely used Fast Travel in Oblivion (I don't think ever in my current playthrough). I used public transit somewhat more often in Morrowind, but really would just like to have Mark and Recall back. I like having an explanation, even if it's a magical one for how I got from one place to another.

[Ally Chimienti]

I've rarely used Fast Travel in Oblivion (I don't think ever in my current playthrough). I used public transit somewhat more often in Morrowind, but really would just like to have Mark and Recall back. I like having an explanation, even if it's a magical one for how I got from one place to another.

I agree. They attempted to explain the map travel in OB by saying that "time still passes", but that was practically an insult to the user since there are no time-dependent quests in OB, so there was absolutely no cost or legitimate explanation for why it was available.

[Bedford White]

I agree. They attempted to explain the map travel in OB by saying that "time still passes", but that was practically an insult to the user since there are no time-dependent quests in OB, so there was absolutely no cost or legitimate explanation for why it was available.

Actually, the manual says, "When you fast travel, time will move ahead according to how long it would have taken you to get there normally." Why it is available is in its name -- it's fast. I think there is no cost for it because there is relatively no cost to travelling normally. Why make the character pay a price for fast travel that he doesn't have to pay when travelling normally? Ironically, normal travel is almost always profitable. Heck, the game should pay our characters when we use fast travel.

[Pixie]

Well, missing out on the loot is the price you pay for fast travel.

And I think that's sufficient. I hate getting "waylaid" like in Baldur's Gate. Fast Travel is a last resort when I've been running back and forth between cities for a while (for example: robbing each mages guild, then fencing in Bruma) so the last thing I want is to be interrupted by some stupid minotaurs that I fast-traveled to avoid in the first place.

Obviously, this isn't true for everyone, but the only time I ever use fast travel is when walking normally becomes too boring to bear. So, the fast travel isn't the flaw in the game, my desire to use fast travel to begin with springs from a greater flaw in the overall design of the world.

The wilderness in Fallout 3 was uber fun for me. I spent most of my time in the wilderness exploring, or sneaking between quest locations. Lots of unique sights to stumble across, some quests to pick up (although there still need to be way more), and more realistically and carefully placed creatures. So, I'm not too worried about TESV in that respect.

[Mel E]

Well, missing out on the loot is the price you pay for fast travel.

And I think that's sufficient. I hate getting "waylaid" like in Baldur's Gate. Fast Travel is a last resort when I've been running back and forth between cities for a while (for example: robbing each mages guild, then fencing in Bruma) so the last thing I want is to be interrupted by some stupid minotaurs that I fast-traveled to avoid in the first place.

Obviously, this isn't true for everyone, but the only time I ever use fast travel is when walking normally becomes too boring to bear. So, the fast travel isn't the flaw in the game, my desire to use fast travel to begin with springs from a greater flaw in the overall design of the world.

The wilderness in Fallout 3 was uber fun for me. I spent most of my time in the wilderness exploring, or sneaking between quest locations. Lots of unique sights to stumble across, some quests to pick up (although there still need to be way more), and more realistically and carefully placed creatures. So, I'm not too worried about TESV in that respect.

Ahhh, theres alot of things fallout 3 had fixet, yet not ehough to make me rely 100% on Bethesda.

What made Fallout 3 even funnier to explore was the uniqueness the whole game had. Every structure had a history to them. Lost factories, car mechanics, radio signal tower, all of those locations made me feel that they were actually used. That made me skip fast travel and go out just to see old structures in the background that also had handplaced items in them.

But what made me use oblivions fast travel was not all because it was easier, it was because the caves and ruins was just overall uninteresting. Not ever did a ayleid ruin remind me that people actually lived theire. They where just there to have creautures and loot, no history was behind 1 ruin that another didn't have.

Soo......

Morrowind (and Fallout 3) had so much uniqeness in structures and items that I didn't want to skip it by fast travelling.

Oblivion was uninteresing about exploration that i wanted to skip half of the caves/ruins by fast travelling.

[Taylor Bakos]

There were a few places in OB that made sense in a weird sort of way, but often not because of "loot". Obviously, there was some sort of story or the aftermath of an event there, which you could at least partly figure out. Unfortunately, that was the rare exception in OB, where it was far more frequent in MW.

Fast Travel was only one piece of the problem, but there was an additional point to consider: when everything is guaranteed to automatically respawn in 3 days, you can keep going back to the same places over and over. You'll probably need to make 2 or 3 trips back and forth each time, in order to move the majority of the looted items. There isn't any "exploration" to be done along the way, because you've been there before, over and over. Basically, FT removes the tedium of going back and forth with an armload of loot, for those who don't find it tedious enough to fight their way through the exact same places all over again every 3 days. OB gives you that method of doing the "gruntwork" after the fight, where MW had plenty of other "exploits" instead, like using Intervention spells, scrolls, or potions while severely overburdened with 1000+ weight units of loot to move everything in one trip. Perhaps it isn't so much that the FT players won't take the time exploring as being unable to move a lot of inventory aftrerward without a lot of tedious walking back and forth. To me, "free" FT is far less useful, because I don't keep going back to the same places again, so the tedium of walking isn't that big an issue, except in the familiar places where alternative "public" transportation could be expected.

[Naazhe Perezz]

About the map:

What I'd like to see is some kind of mixture between Oblivion, Morrowind, and the map buying system.

I would have a "blank" map ala Oblivion, no roads, but looks like a more realistic map. I could reveal parts of the maps ala Morrowind. I could then discover other, smaller, secret areas with bought maps. Personally, I would love to see this addition.

I, myself, don't really like a map menu that doesn't resemble a menu. I could live with it, and wouldn't be too worried, but I'd rather a map menu ala Morrowind/Oblivion.

I see the Cliff Racer debate has gone. (Been away for a few days. Important things seem to happen whenever I'm not here <_<)

[Len swann]

The old Fallout games had a nice fast travel system, where you'd always run into random encounters. Sad part is, it was TOO many encounters. Something like this would help it a lot.