I http://spearthane.wordpress.com/2008/04/15/from-aldmora-to-empire/ to explain to myself what went on from the time Aldmorans (to use the merish term) migrated to Tamriel, to the Nords triumphant in north-central Tamriel and on their way to empire.

I can't help but think it's a much darker time than the Nord entry on UESPWiki states. As with any war there are atrocities on both sides, here arguably much worse because of a definite lack of sympathy between the mer and men. For the men to establish as strong a foothold as they did, the Night of Tears would just be the beginning of the horrors, since the Nord culture has a strong sense of vengeance. To drive the Falmer from Skyrim would mean something worse than the Ayleids enslaving Nedes, which was in part a reaction to what was going on up north.

I tend to disagree with anyone who thinks that there would be lots of (actually, any) Falmer ruins scattered around Skyrim, like Ayleid ruins in Oblivion. In this case, the dominant culture was the usurper, who would be as interested in destroying symbols of power of the previous culture, as in destroying the previous culture itself (Fall of the Snow Prince is pretty clear on the latter). I'm not against culturally-degenerate, isolated Falmer hiding in Skyrim (they're long-lived elves after all), but most should have interbred and effectively disappeared, and in their original form should be nowhere any group of Nords have frequently travelled to in the past few milennia.

Yay! Human pre-history!

Nedes are my favorite, but the Nords are good too. I'll read it as soon as I can summon the attention span.

I'm so confused.





He referenced it.

I saw you didn't have http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/frontier_conquest.shtml which disputes the idea that all humans came from Atmora in your writing.

I agree on that the number of ruins should be limited, and I hope they avoid Oblivion's mistake. Like the Ayleid, the Falmer have gone in hiding and nobody really knows who they are, yet a country that is so littered with their ruins, can't possibly forget them.

The side notes you made are quite interesting.

Frontier Conquest doesn't argue so much as hint. Or if you hear about the indigenous Nedes elsewhere, the book makes bucketloads more sense.

I figure it doesn't matter too much whether people originated on one continent or many. The first population migration in Nirn probably worked pretty much like on Earth: the earliest people wandered from a very few population sources to all over the world, diverged greatly in their culture, and when they came back together were so different that they almost could not tell they were once one people.

I assume there were Aldmorans who migrated before the great settlement fleets of the climate change, and pretty much merged into the Nedic culture and race. But the settlement fleets brought over the core of their civilization, and that spark, that coherent culture would not assimilate into the mer-dominated status quo. That fear motivated the Falmer to strike them down, but they did not really understand how that would resound in the core of their culture and motivate them to strike back, so much different from the assimilated Nedes. I also assume that the Falmer had an idea that the Nedes in Cyrod could be enslaved by the Ayleids, also very different from the fiercely independent and warlike Aldmorans.

MK has given us a sliver-thin window that has a view of a race of men who have almost nothing in common with their northern bretheren. They are distinct in culture and belief and I was hooked in three vague paragraphs.

Alessia was no snow man.

That's why he's the lore master.



Nor should she be. It would lessen the depth and originality of both the Cyrodiilic Nedes and the Aldmorans to assume that because they probably came from the same source a really long time ago, they must therefore share cultural traits now (or a few thousand years ago).

Just playing devil's advocate here, he has a wonderful point in saying this. My family came from France only a bout 400 years ago, and, now, we have no cultural ties to France at all. We're wholly American. That's only 400 years; what can happen in a millenium?

Is this still in response to something I wrote in the OP, or an observation?

I think I'm agreeing that Alessia was not necessarily in any recognizable way Aldmoran, and that even if she came from the same earliest peoples (either on Tamriel or Aldmora or both), that doesn't say anything about her character or society now. Just as one would say that even if the Chinese and the French came from the same people once, they necessarily have any character or society traits in common, beyond those required by both being Homo sapiens.

Umm. Yeah. I was agreeing. How, exactly, was it unclear?

The term "devil's advocate" usually implies you're disagreeing with someone. But, 'nuff said on this, we're apparently violently agreeing.

I never said it was you I disagreed with. Although, personally, I don't think Nedes came from Altmora. I do, however, appreciate the logic in your statement and wished to express that you have a very good point. I prefaced my post with the devil's advocate thing to let others know that I was making the statement, despite my personal beliefs or feelings, since you make a very valid argument for your case. That is what devil's advocate means. Taking a certain position for the sake of argument, regardless of whether or not you buy into it. Anyway, the point is, you have a point. I'd give you a fishy stick, but I'm all out.

*singsong voice*
But they di'n't.....

Mix Nord and Altmer and you get Imperials somehow? The Out-of-Atmora theory is based on an absolute assumption that Atmora is the homeland. Then what of the Kothringi? If it's no longer an absolute theory then continuing to draw those conclusions is dishonest without reexamination. And once you reexamine such sources as Frontier, Conquest, it all becomes clear.

Tedders might have an explanation. He did mention the tribes of men in Black Marsh, probably men who held onto their tribal past while other tribes disappeared, killed, or were swallowed. FCA's author certainly believes there might be room for Out-of-Atmora being two different schools, but well he couldn't reject that book. Of course, I still have the Aboriginal theory preference if MK posted more Atmoran Totems.

Personally, I'm still confused with this whole project. Sigrid, I really don't know if it's necessary to include a paragraph on "genocide."

I don't agree. Ayleids were confirmed to exist up through the second era and rumored to exist throughout the third.

Falmer have to not been confirmed to exist since the Merthic and have only been rumored to exist since then. Evidence from Bloodmoon also seems to support the fact that they no longer exist. Ayleids likely still exist (I'm ignoring the fact that Oblivion butchered Ayleid lore). The Falmer probebly don't.

If I'm not mistaken, Out-of-Atmora was once canon and the only side of the story. But nowadays, I like to cast out-of-Atmora not as a forum debate, but as an in-character theory in Tamriel that is outdated and out of place for obvious reasons. There's no way the Africans built Great Zimbabwe, the Earth is flat, etc.

Yes, yes yes!!! Do we even have proof outside the book in Bloodmoon (which was fiction) and possibly the tower that the Falmer existed at all? There were elves there for sure, but were they different than the Direnni or Altmer or the Ayleids? And TES V better not revolve around lore-butchered Falmer as TES IV revolved around butchered lore-Ayleid. Those were mannish provinces, they should centered around mannish history, not minor merish history.

Hmmn... I really like what I'm hearing.

Edit: Goshdarnit Proweler.

The Falmer are in Shadow Key, that is, light blue elves with snowy hair hiding out in an icy cave.

Well then. There's proof. I haven't played Shadowkey or Dawnstar. I still stand by the rest of my statement. Their existance is still doubtful enough to the people of Tamriel that people believe that the Rieklings are Falmer. I would say that means there shouldn't be any ruins or real proof of their existance. Except to us.

But it's still a good post, as it reecomends that the Falmer be approached through a lense of culture and shared history rather than the long-lost race of mysterious cruel mystics, like we got with the Aylieds. By rights, the positions should be revered, but what can you do?

Light blue elves with snowy hair, who would've thought? : :mellow:

That's not even my problem. The Ayleids are called "Wild Elves" not "Nazi Elves". They were supposed to be living in a tribal system populating the forests of Cyrodill (which were also conveniently removed). For all their talk about hating Oblivion, the mainstream boys seem to not have a problem with the way Aylleids were portrayed in Oblivion, which was a horrible and lore-breaking.

@Prowler:

Thos creatures in Shadowkey were never named as Falmer. They were not even named as elves. It is open to debate whether they were actually Falmer or not.

The point of the Spearthane project is not the OP. The point of the OP is justification for treating Falmer ruins differently than either Dwemer or Ayleid, and to cast a darker light on Nord history, motivation, and actions than most lore.

I understand the reluctance to incorporate the subject, but I promise that I'm not going to go too far in this direction. I'm looking more for destruction of culture and physical works (ethnocide), than to invoke Godwin's Law. In any event, I used the excerpt to set the tone and describe attitudes. The vikings were not known for their concentration camps, after all, or even ghettos.