Ok people, play fallout 1 and 2 even tactics, see the level of six I am talking about first before you talk! please! In F3 there is little in the way of six at all not even close to the levels in the past games. There are no naked people in the others, it fades to black, and they are M Rated not advlt. they let people play games like that then why not know?!

I don't care as much about the inclusion of six one way or the other, if it was done the way that Mass Effect did it I wouldn't mind as much. If it was presented the way it was in GTA4 or the first Fable for instance I would tell Bethesda to leave it out.

As far as gambling goes, I say "YESSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" I think it is rather unrealisic for Moriarty's Saloon to not have a craps table or a roulette wheel. You know his scumy hind end would be running some type of crooked game. With the next game being set in Vegas, I am going to be really, really, really disapointed if there isn't something resembling a functioning casino somewhere in the game. If I can't get a game of Black Jack and some free liquor I will be very mad.

1 - I don't think gambling was left out to avoid controversey. Smells like time constraints.

2 - six isn't considered a vice, is it?

3 - I would like both. By convention, female briasts are naughty, but still.

six is a Vice in terms of Prostitution like the Cats Paw In New Reno, Fallout 2. They did not show the six it faded to black and that is ok with me.

Alright then I don't mind six but they better make it fade like everyone else is saying

I think it's very immature to leave out something as real as six or gambling. It's a part of life, far more than running around killing people is, yet when it comes to games everyone runs and hides from it.

This is something that makes me laugh, people are happy to have a game filled will violence, all forms of killing, swearing, but if there's six in it, people are up in arms about how bad it is.

Guess what, killing people is worse than six.

six is a part of everyone's life, deal with it.

That is very true but I don't want to accept it as an argument for the simple reason that I consider it a bad thing
Artistic expression should come before financials - since it doesn't it's the main problem that needs to be solved.
It worked for all sorts of entertainment media, such as cinema and comics, so it should work for games too.
(Or at least for genres other than adventures and the various small casual ones and flash games... RPGs beg for some art in them)

Without artistic expression and real human nature being realistically expressed in Games you get "cookie cutter games." Human Nature needs to be in games without it they grow old fast. That is why they came up with the G.E.C.K so fans can add what they want. Well that just divides fans because we will have different mods and some people don't play F3 on PC so it's harder for them. Everyone will have different Ideas of what the fallout universe should be. The standard should be set by the makers of the game first then added to later by fans if they want. The Games of Fallout's past set the bar for what fallout should be.
Bethesda did not come close to that bar at all. It was a big let down for I am a big Fallout Fan. The story for the game was good and there are alot of good things they did but for the feel of the game they did not do a good job. I still play F1 and 2 as well as tactics from time to time and I never get bored with them and I don't need Mods. When I think about starting a new Fallout 3 game I get bored after the first couple of quests. Once killing loses it's fun there is not much out there. Again I can get Mods but that is not my point.

Long story short, yes to all, though I would buy it either way. Personally, I think if you're making a game with a targeted M rating, you should milk that rating for all it's worth. Of course, if something doesn't fit the game, or you don't know how to implement it properly, just drop it rather than force it. Best to have something missing than in the game and you wonder why the hell it was bothered with.

And AndyTbone's point about sums up everything else I'd have to say here.

True but they can look at how it was implemented in the Fallout 1-2 and tactics games. That was how it sould have been done and what most people want to have back in future fallout games. I know fallout 3 different because of the software used to make it is far better then the last ones but Gambling, six and other human vices could have been implemented the way the others had it. They just had/have to work on it for the new graphics and software.

Yes, and pie should come before turnips. It's a tough world out there, and money isn't free. And no, financials ALWAYS come before art, in all media, everywhere, unless the artists just don't care about making money. Everything has a budget. I know it's a distasteful argument, but there it is. You wouldn't believe how many times I've been in meetings with the finance people, the engineers, and the marketing folks who all sit there staring with ill intent at each other. The engineers always want to make the biggest, the best, the most efficient, regardless of development cost or any financial requirement. The marketing people always know EXACTLY what the customers want and what they are willing to pay, and the folks from finance always act like no one but them have any idea how close to ruin the company could be if they didn't horde their precious shinys.

So you have to choose where to put the resources, and there are seldom enough time talent and money to do what you want to do, so you prioritize features and make tough decisions...decisions that will eventually haunt you as they are plastered all over by forum posters who weren't there/don't understand.
/rant off

If they know we are willing to pay for it then why not give the money so it can be in the game?! If New Vegas does not have Gambling, six and other human vices that were in In FO1 and 2 even tactics then that will be proof that Bethesda does not care about it's fallout fans and only wants to pump out "cookie cutter" games that are just for people that like mindless killing.

Gambling in other fallouts was minimal and the six was fade to black but Bethesda can add to the gambling by have more then just crap tables. The six well It can still be fade to back but it should be in the game. It does add to the Feel of a post apocalyptic wasteland. Having jet junkies that look and act like jet junkies also greatly adds to the feel of the game.
All of this will give future games the game back ground that the others had, there is little going on in Fallout 3. The people all seem very boring and Lame.
Fallout 3 is a great game but they could have made it so much better. It does not feel like Fallout.

I have spent alot of money on all things Fallout 3, most of which I spent pre-ording stuff. I bought an new computer just to play FO3 so I am willing to spend my money but not if they keep taking away from the Fallout Universe.
Look at the poll.
I know it's not scientific but we are all Fallout 3 fans at least on this forum are we not? there are many fans that were fans of Fallout long before bethesda took over, here on this forum. So if the fans say that they want it or just don't care and will buy it either way. Then why is bethesda scared we will not buy it?

Just give the Fans what they want!

It's an RPG, if I want to gamble, have six etc then ideally I should be able to. I think gambling wouldn't effect censorship at all (looking at similar RPGs and games), and maybe just lightly touch on the six aspect, maybe with innuendo or brief nudity but obviously no graphic scenes, after all movies with PG13 or 15 rating often have 'scenes of a sixual nature' and Fallout 4 will have a MA rating.

I don't understand why games are looked upon by the general public as they are. My first reaction is to acknowledge that many war games are simply propaganda tools and new ways for kids to be desensitized to killing and inviting them to join the military.

If a game depicts killing and death, why is it of any consequence that it depicts things like six and drugs and gambling and things like that? It can't be compared whatsoever to people being killed, yet obviously no one care about that because they are just video games.

It's like that line from Apocalypse Now, when Colonel Kurtz says something like.... they weren't allowed to write "[censored]" on the side of an airplane that drops bombs on people.

What do I care about all that? Did you take me for a stockholder? Because I'm not
I'm just a gamer who wants quality in my games... if they can offer it to me I'll give them my money - if they can't offer it... well sorry maybe next time.
I don't have absolutely no intention to bother with their finances, their marketing and their resources management - that's their job, I just want to play a game - and thus I don't give half a penny about such excuses... I just make suggestions for things I might be willing to pay for, if they can't or don't want to offer them to me, too bad, I just won't buy the game and any such excuses will not convince me otherwise - leave them for the stockholders.

Obsidian is responsible for the development of New Vegas. Bethesda's just there for publishing & marketing the game.

well I am sure Bethesda will have a say because they own the rights to all things Fallout now. I am hoping Obsidian will have the nuts to do what Bethesda seems scared of doing and that is having Gambling, six and other human vices realistically portrayed in future games. If Bethesda is publishing it and Obisidian says well we could not have Gambling, six and other human vices in New Vegas then that will be the ultimate proof that they don't care about having realistic M-rated Role Playing Games and their Loyal Fallout Fans. That they just want to pump out cheap "cookie cutter" games for mindless killing with no real back ground entertainment and side quests.

That quote is from Fallout 3 General Discussion/People You Can Sleep With In Fallout 3 Question. My response was the following. I think it adds to this conversation.

"I can see Romance being in future fallouts, the romance should be able to lead to six. It is an RPG after all. What is the point in role playing a relationship if you can't go as far as having a sixual relationship? What would being in a relationship be with out the possibility of cheating on your partner? Or you partner cheating on you? It is reality it can and does happen. If we are Role playing here then the game should have aspects of real human social behaviour. Real social behaviour also has a darker side and that is Prostitution, the worlds oldest profession. It has been around since the beginning of Human history why would it go away after the apocalypse?

Also it is an M rated Game here M rated includes six. The other fallouts are M rated. I don't think anyone is advocating six on the level as seen in porm or even softcoe porm here. I think most people just want to have the level seen in fallout's past back and to see that level in 3D. I would like to see it alittle more then there was in past levels but I will be happy to just have it the way it was before."

I am not talking about showing the act of six. They can have a fade to back. Having Nova sleep next to you does not even come close to hinting at six not as much as a fade to back. Most prosttutes are not as fully dressed as Nova. Most prosttutes try to show off their "goods." I am not talking about seing their "naughty bits" here but lets see some skin. Make things more real. Have the prosttutes say things that a real prosttute trying to get you to pay for her or him to be fair would say.


I have made some of these points before but there are some new ones I though should be mentioned here.

I don't see why 'M rated' should automatically mean that there should be six in it (if that's what you were getting to).
Also there was porm in FO2
(who knew what a 'fluffer' is before playing FO2? I certainly didn't! see? a game can be both M rated and educational at the same time! )

Well "The Golden Globes" made porm yes but they did not show people in the act of having six or anyone's Naughty bits. It faded to black when you try out for that "fluffer" job. You could become a porm star as well but again they never showed you having six or the movies you made. They did talk about the movies you made, which was fun.
Yes it was very educational not just for what a fluffer was it also teaches you about STDs as well I see nothing wrong with having that in the game or anything else in New Reno. Fallout Future should have that level again.
I am not saying they should show the six just at least talk about it have porm places in the back ground and fade to blacks when you have six.

MATURE
Titles rated M (Mature) have content that may be suitable for persons ages 17 and older. Titles in this category may contain intense violence, blood and gore, sixual content and/or strong language."
"sixual content"

Who is "we" exactly. How many are "we"? What is the opportunity cost of including gambling and six? That is, what feature(s) would have to go, so the the resources can be shifted to six and gambling? Looks like FO3 did well financially without six and gambling. Would I like to see those things in the next game? Sure I would. I just want to see other things more, like more quests, more involved dialogue, and even more locations to explore. If having gambling and six causes the developers to have to give up something that I would rather have, then forget it. As I say, gambling is way low om my list of improvements.

So.I've reached my self imposed recursive argument string at 3. I'm out.

I don't think it's really about what you can fit in a game, mature-content-wise, but what is appropriate to that game in terms of storytelling.

If you think of the latest Tarantino Movie (Inglourious Basterds), it's only as gory as it needs to be - no more, no less. People rather expect there to be blood and guts, and while there were some wince-inducing scenes, there wasn't anything there that was done purely for the sake of it. It's not that he couldn't have made it worse, but that he considers himself artistically above just sticking things in that don't need to be there, purely for their own sake.

Fallout 3 contained prostitution, violence, swearing, drugs, alcohol ... everything except gambling, really - but it's difficult to see how that could have been added except for some half-baked minigame. It's something you expect in Vegas but not post-apoc DC. As for porm, again that was more appropriate for the location of Fallout 2, but would seem crass and inappropriate in the Capital Wasteland.

I think Fallout 3 was appropriate to its setting and location - anything more just would have seem jarringly gratuitous.

I think princess_stomper has a very good point, there. Looking back, Fallout 2 was probably over the line in terms of gratuitous sixuality and "mature" concepts. But on the other hand, a fair portion of the more extreme examples did take place in Reno (which is where you tend to end up if Vegas considers you to be too "sleazy"... ) So to an extent it did make more sense within the context of that location, than it would in DC.

If I'm being honest with myself, Fallout 2 was closer to a young boy's idea of what "mature" would be; rather than it's traditional meaning. Just tossing these elements into the game isn't necessarily going to make it any more gritty or desperate; I think it's more a matter of quality over quantity. (And that said; I'm sure the vast majority of the "pro" side of this debate feel that same way - obviously no-one's really asking for gratuitous boobs for it's own sake, etc.)

When I first played Fallout 3, I remember "hiring" Nova (that's the hoker's name, right?) when I first got to Megaton; and being a little bit... dissapointed with the outcome. I wasn't expecting anything more than the classic fade to black, but somehow the whole experience just felt... empty. With the added perspective of passing time, however - that's actually sort of spot on for something like that, though. We're talking about something that's really more of a business transaction than anything. The screen goes black and opens again with you and Nova standing next to the bed. Nothing terribly important happened - that's her job, after all; and she probably just wants you to leave so the room can be free for the next client.

Looking back on it now, that actually sort of underlined the depravity of what I'd just done. When it was all said and done, I was a couple hundred caps poorer, felt a little dirty, and that was about it. What was she supposed to be doing, laying on the bed with me? Cuddle time costs extra - this wasn't a romantic encounter. Was she supposed to say something clever? I'd already paid my money and got what I wanted, there's no more reason for her to lay the charm on me.

That being said, though - I do think there were some missed opportunities to show the slimy underbelly of humanity living in a desperate situation. There's hokers, sure - and that'd probably be a position many women (and men) would find themselves stuck in, in a world like that. And there were a few junkies in Fallout 3, but nothing that really showed me why that was such a bad thing. There's drugs around every corner in Fallout 3, but the only junkies you find in the game are "functional addicts" at worst. They never came across (to me) as people who have watched their lives slip away as slaves to their addiction. (Maybe this is because I've known people like that in real life; and it's hard to drive something like that home in a videdogame, but still.)

What's-his-name in Megaton seemed like someone who maybe had the potential to one day hit rock bottom, but the only real indication that he had any sort of a problem was because everyone was saying he had one. There were a couple of people in Rivet City that seemed to have a drug problem, but not to the extent (that I could see,) that they were trading in their pride and humanity for just one more fix.

I think, if anything, that's what I'd like to see more of in the next Fallout games. It's not about the quantity of these elements, but the raw humanity and desperation shown in those cases where it does show up. Where are the prosttutes who want to leave that life, but literally have no other options if they want to continue to survive? Where are the junkies who have completely given up and are willing to do anything at all for the promise of one more fix? If we really want to go the mature route, then the focus isn't about having these things in the game; but the human cost these things carry with them.

I dont view that as a good argument when other rpg developers can still manage put stuff like that in a game without sacrificing story,dialogue, or quests.

Very well said and what I've been trying to say all along. Seeing the resulting self destruction would have driven it home and that would have been a mature approach. But nothing about how it was portrayed in FO2 seemed mature to me. That is part of why I felt FO was so much better then the second one and FO3 better than the second. The cheezy humor and how supposedly mature subjects were approached just seemed silly to me. That could have to do with my being an older advlt by then but I'm not really sure about that aspect of it.

FO3 did have mature subjects but they somehow did not get across the desperation of the human condition in the world they had to contend with. To have been able to get that across while still having that black humor would have put FO3 over the top of good for me. I'm sure that level of desperation in people is difficult to portray in a game, but it is sure something I hope they strive for in the future.