I've been interested recently in the gradient spiritualis (well I made that up). But basically the order of divinity from gods and demons to mortals.

I put together this spreadsheet on it. But I wanted to know what some of you lore buffs thought about it. Most of it is purely speculation, specifically which spirits are aligned with Anu, and which with Padomay. My placement of the alignments is mostly due to my own thoughts on it. I haven't included culture-heroes like Phynaster and Morihaus or the Yokudan gods (although some lines can be drawn to connect them to the Tamrielic pantheons, ie. Sep-Lorkhan).

http://i489.photobucket.com/albums/rr256/ericthered1090/Random%20Stuff/MythtoMortals.jpg

-Melchior Dahrk

p.s. I am doing this so it can be picked apart and discussed if there is any interest, I have no emotional ties to it

It is hard to make anything like that accurate since we don't know definitively what Et' Ada are aligned with what primeval force besides for a few exeptions (Shor is definitely Padomaic)

Right, he is the only one we know for sure. Shouldn't Akatosh (Anuiel) be aligned with Anu? In the High Elven creation myths isn't he his son? And I thought that I read somewhere that Azura was a Daedra aligned with Anu, but I'd have to find a source...

Obviously this could never be 100% accurate, I'm just trying to associate it as much as possible with each divine's personality (if it can be called such).

Hmm, from what I can see it looks accurate, though I am by no means an expert. It looks very good, I'm glad to see all the organization you are doing with the lore Makes things easier to sort out in my head and whatnot. Keep up the good work :goodjob:

Yes, the Time-dragon is definitely Anubic.

Thanks, I've had a lot of time to read up on some lore. I've re-read all the obscure texts, now I need to re-read the books...

feel free to use the table if you like


Thought so... so many that we don't know though *sigh*

Been a long time since, but I did something similar after a conversation with MK. It's not properly fact-checked and the focus lies more on a creation timetable than a classification of its participants, but maybe it helps:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/Nalion_/creation_table.jpg

Every ada fits into a pattern of three: an original whole, an anuic hypostasis, and a padomaic hypostasis. This is not exactly division, as the original continues to exist, but it is not exactly reproduction either, as the hypostases still 'are' the original. Any ada posited as descending from another must therefore have a unique sibling, and any ada posited as a sibling must have an original whole. Every entity that we know of (other than Padhome itself) is a hypostasis of Anu. What we know as Padomaics are those ada that come from the padomaic branches of relatively early divisions below Anu. The number of stars is the number of ada that participated in the convention. The base 3 logarithm of the number of stars provides the lower bound on the number of divisions between the first and penultimate divisions.

The creation of Mundus was the first and only recombination of ada, and it is not possible for ada to withdraw from this combination in such a way that the Mundus would continue to exist. The last level of division occurred at the convention, at which point all of the known aedra and daedra began to exist. Any reference to aedra or daedra saying or doing things before the convention must be taken as referring to their hyperstases.

Division at that point was the only way to escape the Mundus without destroying it, so each ada divided into the parts that sought freedom (daedra) and those that wanted to preserve what had been created (aedra). The departure of the padomaic elements created the stars. This had to be counterbalanced by the introduction of new limitations to maintain the exactness of Mundus: the entrance of the entities that caused the unstars of the serpent constellation (by travelling the other way), particularly Lorkhan. The spirits that made no attempt to escape became mortals.

I'd say Azura is Padomay aligned, and bretons don't count because they're a hybrid race that came later, and the dunmer didn't come into existence till they were cursed. With the dunmer, they chose to follow new gods and beliefs, but were known as chimer for this belief. At this point, they looked a lot like altmer, and it wasn't until Azura cursed them did the chimer become dunmer. Also, all spirits and things were et'Ada, but it wasn't till the creation of Mundus did the division of Aedra, Daedra, and Magna Ge (those who left to the Aetherius) appear. As for the status of the et'Ada, they're a mix of padomay and anu, though some favoring one side over another.

As for more in-depth anolysis, mortals are nothing more than lesser spirits who now reside on Mundus, built upon the pieces and bodies of aedra and earthbones. It could be argued that certain mortals are more Anu aligned or Padomay aligned, but I don't really find much of a point, as all being in the days before are just et'Ada (which I explained early), thanks to the Gray Maybe. As for the difference between Earthbones and Aedra, the Earthbones completely gave themselves up, while the Aedra only gave a part of themselves up. The Daedra are spirits that decided to reside in Oblivion and not participate in creation at all. The Magna Ge are those who did not participate, and fled to the Aetherius. Magnus is one such being, who tore the largest hole through Oblivion into the Aetherius, while the stars are the spirits who did the same, but aren't as long. Meridia used to be a Magna Ge, but she broke rule number 1, which is DO NOT INTERACT WITH OUTSIDERS.

Though, typical convention will make a note that the daedra are more padomay aligned, while the aedra are anu. Shor/Shezzar/Lorkhan, however, is noted as being more padomayic, despite giving a part of himself to creation. This in turn makes me believe introducing how aligned a spirit is to Anu and Padomay is crap when it comes to figuring out what is daedric and what is aedric.

How I would classify would be something like this http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/8041/elderscrollbeingclassif.jpg, though Nalion is something I'd say may be more accurate than mine. Of course, this is using Monomyth definition of how the world began; I am NOT touching Redguard myths, they make my head hurt.

That is very useful. I kind of left out the definition of aedra being mixed between Anu and Padomay. I guess I was trying to distill black and white from Gray. Thanks for the link.


So your saying that the current Aedra/Daedra didn't even exist as lesser spirits before the last convention? Creation myths simply refer to their hypostases?


I like that outline, but wouldn't mortals be descended from the Aedra specifically? Since they appeared on Nirn?

You're right about the Dunmer and Bretons though. However I like the split Nalion mentioned between the wandering and settled Ehlnofey since all the elves came from the same stock and the men from the other.

What stock did the betmer come from?



Thanks for the ongoing discussion and comments guys, I'm learning a lot!

Mer, yes, because they like to think of themselves as gods, specifically the altmer, in the past and now grow weaker every generation. To the men, we were weak spirits given divine mercy. But the only definition I find Aedra to be is the spirits that gave themselves to be Mundus. The mortals were the lesser spirits that ended up there, the settlers being the mer, and the wanderers being men. Khajiit were once mer, but are not longer. Argonians are...different. They seem to be more of the product of the Hist, which of whom we have extremely little information.

I don't think the chart works so well, because it doesn't allow for the grey inbetween. I would suggest rather a gradient list, ranging from Padomay to Anu and everything inbetween based on the inclination of said being(s).

I've made an updated version of the table based on some of the comments here and some refelction

http://i489.photobucket.com/albums/rr256/ericthered1090/TESMythtoMortals.jpg

Orismer = orc, not orsimer --> orc. Orc is just a short way of saying orsimer. Before the orcs were orcs, they were just a bunch of aldmer who revered Trinimac over anyone else. Also, they only became exiled, because they became fugly and very unaldmer looking. Also, the bosmer aren't hybrids. So really it's like this with the mer:
Aldmer --> Altmer, bosmer, chimer, orsimer, falmer, etc. Chimer --> dunmer.

The khajiit were believed to be bosmer, but due to the unstable nature of Nirn at the time, everyone was shifting into different things. Azura halted this by binding their forms to the lunar lattice, then Y'ffre came and stabilized the world.

That's true about the Orcs I suppose, I was just trying to point out that they changed. They weren't known as Orcs before they were Transmorgified though were they?

Isn't it true though that the Altmer claim that the Bosmer have intermingled with men? Were they originally pure-bred Bosmer then and NOW they are mixed, like the Bretons? Or is that just the Altmer being snotty?

So Y'ffre stabilized everyone then? Not just the Bosmer?

* The 'orcs' were just aldmer who were hardline with Trinimac
* The altmer are HIGHLY snooty. They consider their forest brethren to be nothing more than tainted for they took "mannish wives" which says to me, women who were bigger and tougher.
* Y'ffre stabilized Nirn, not just he bosmer. It's that the bosmer hold Y'ffre at the highest esteem.

But they weren't actually called Orcs then were they?

And so the Bosmer took man-ISH wives not human wives then.

The Bosmer just chose the uglier wives, and so evolved uglier (in the Altmeri veiw, i find pointed ears in general repulsive.) I see elves like this:

Ehlnofey-> Elves-> Aldmer > Orsimer, Breton (half), Altmer, Chimer-> Dunmer
Falmer-> Reiklings? Bosmer -> Kajiit
Dwemer
Aylieds

aI always thought that Kothrigi were decended from wandering Hist

This quote should help:



Here's the quote I refer to

I'm almost certain the left-handed Elves are Dwemer.

Based on what evidence?

Doesn't Dyus clearly state that Knights of Order are something entirely different from Daedra?

It's speculated, but not confirmed. The only conformation of where the dwemer have been is Hammerfel and Morrowind. Everywhere else, it's unknown.

@Melchior Dahrk: I'm pretty sure all elves were at one point aldmer (proto-mer), but divisions eventually happened and we ended up with what we now have. Currently, the altmer are the closest thing to the aldmer of old.

@Don't forget this: read this passage from the interview If accurate, there's still more we don't know, or Dyus running his mouth off. I'd say they're still daedra in a sense they're still spirits that did not participate in the creation of Mundus, and reside in Oblivion. It's a very general term, yes, but so is mortal. svck it daedra!

If you read the Words of the Clan mother closely you'll notice that both the Bosmer, Khajiit and all other Mer were created from the Forest people, whom weren't just people living in the woods like the Bosmer do, but rather people who alternated between the shapes man, beast and plants.