You're assuming that is the case. The only thing we can do now is wait and see. Let people do what they want for now because you're only fighting an uphill battle by telling them not to mod their Bethesda game.

I use lots of mods, mostly interface and texture stuff, and I just made a new mod using FO4Edit, which I would recommend other modders use for the moment. We can't be sure it's entirely safe, but we can be sure FalloutSnip is very unsafe.

edit: nevermind.

Nevertheless, it is a battle that needs to be fought. That is why I started this thread in the first place.

And no one is saying not to mod the game. What we are saying is that .esp files are to be avoided. Texture replacers, for example, are fine. I think you are arguing just for the sake of arguing. At least the rest of us are trying to help.

Snip is broken, always has been. This should be brought up on the Nexus forums too so that the staff can be made aware of this. Mods that break games are generally removed if it's known, as it borders on malicious content.

GECK (and CKIT) is broken too in some ways, particularly with floating point math errors. It routinely breaks half bound extents, destroys portal data, moves or resizes room bounds and completely breaks dialogue tree's on occasion. Generally authors catch these kinds of bugs, because it breaks their mods however.

It's not as serious as the issues that can be caused by Snip or the incorrect use of xEdit or any other 3rd party tool.

Those who argue without knowing the internal workings of plugins and the engine should step away from this conversation and accept the wisdom of those who do, especially when it can be backed up with known examples and facts.

Willingly supporting breaking people games because of whatever your personal feelings are is inconsiderate.

Those of you who know better, should also know better than to prove your points with fear mongering, or throwing your big egos and reputations around.

ITMs and UDRs, while annoying and a source of trouble, are not corrupted records. They are in fact saved correctly and function as intended, and they ONLY become issues when considered alongside other mods.

This is not the same at all as what Snip does, and several people are already finding classic examples of the damage the tool does, even when it is the ONLY mod in use. Missing data, incorrectly saved records, broken compression handling, etc. All things the CK will not cause.

Snip is the only tool to be proven to cause these problems. Your attempts to malign the xEdit team have not gone unnoticed, and FO4Edit has already popped up here as the tool of choice to prove the issues with Snip are real.

He's downplaying it because it doesn't fit his narrative, which is "everything Arthmoor says is a lie". He's done this plenty of times in the past, I'm not overly surprised most Fallout users aren't aware of his history. It's not overly difficult to tell that he's never cracked one of these tools open to use them himself, otherwise he'd not even be trying to make the claims he's making (except to try and malign me of course).

Unfortunately when the issues became apparent with Skyrim, Nexus was made aware and refused to step in until it was way too late to do anything about it. And as I recall, even then, the response was less than useful.

Maybe other people contacting them about it would help, I've already done so 4 years ago based on these very same findings people are seeing now. So I won't be doing so again as I see it as a waste of time when the staff there is not interested in stopping corrupt mods from being distributed.

Test versions of xEdit are always made available here: http://afkmods.iguanadons.net/index.php?/topic/3750-wipz-tes5edit/

I would have to agree with this last bit, Trying to create what should have been a simple .esp export of my prototype caused a number of issues when i Tested it.

the weird part is that testing the mod in the version of the game that I edited the mod in works just fine, but taking the esp mod and installing that into my live test file of the game. . .(I have 4 copys of the game, a clean archive file of the game, my Unmoded copy of the game when I want to play it, the copy i'm trying to build the mod In, and the Mod test copy of the game where I test mods by loading the mod file into it, the problems Im commenting on here seem to all be coming from loading the esp. into the mod test copy

converting the pipe revolver into a prototype of a Volley pistol firing .32 (load 6 shots fire all 6 shots as a volley) results in the game crashing when reloading the gun.

my first npc quest giver spawning into the game results in them doing a very noisy death from above power armor attack effect when they spawn in, despite being a ghoul in Light leather armor. when all they were doing was sitting on the side of the road just short of Sanctuary hills eating normal food

The Death from above effect also happens with an npc who is basically supposed to be a scout who is very good at hiding that "spawns" in when you come across the trigger point. this is always fatal for the player. Granted its amusing the first time because spawning into the game triggered "Do you know how much noise you make when your trying to sneak around out here?"

a conversation trigger based on perks instead causes the npc to attack you instead of asking about something, with the right response asking if you would bring back certain items to that npc(again the quest triggers normally instead the attack on the version where I built the mod but not on the version where I added the mod)

Oh and before I forget, somehow I have feral ghouls in power armor. Don't even ask me how I did that when its supposed to be School kids in that room. but somehow instead of the kids that I had in that room with the teachers and two guys who are there as guards(don't ask), Its unattackable feral ghouls in power armor who at least are not attacking me. One of which followed the script and wants to show me her doll.

No there are not supposed to even be feral ghouls in the building.

Arthmoor: Perhaps I'll bring it up then, not that anyone gives me much credence.

For what it's worth I make all my mods by copying records with TESVSnip/FO4Snip and then make whatever changes in the raw hex. I was never a big skyrim modder, but I've been getting into FO4 and for the most part found this to work acceptably. It's my impression that copying records via TESVSnip/FalloutSnip in this manner does not cause the same sort of save corrupting behaviour?

I mean worst case I can just copy/construct headers/subrecords manually in hex but that sounds like a gigantic pain in the ass, and I'd like to avoid it if at all possible.

Or just use FO4edit when it's released, I don't have access to the test version. I would dearly like to see if my mods are compatible however! The majority are simple GMST changes which shouldn't cause problems, but some (like my weapon crafting mod) are a bit more involved.

Yes, xSnip copy raw record without issue, as long as they are not compressed or they dont contain localized datas (there are a lot of new strings definitions that are not detected now, and will end up with possible issue in the game UI).

But if you edit the data in those tools, the esp have a very high chance to have truncated records.

Int/float/bool GMST records are fine, however, since they have the exact same structure as before so far.

So it's still possible to do very basic stuff with these tools, but the risk is very high to cross the red line, this is why many people here just say it's better to avoid those tool.

Raw hex edition is a good way to handle simple change, as long as you don't mess up with your data, of course

thanks for highlighting the problematic use of .esp-mods

i wasn`t aware of the issues with *-snip.

Although now that i know that there are possible issues (problematic mainly because of the unknown time frame and the uncertainity of therir occurrence), iwill not stop using the ones i do (maybe minus the one with the added recipes for ammo ^^).

My risk, my problem, no one is liable for my corrupt save games or game breaking bugs (at least ones that do not occur on unmodded games ) on my pc but me.

In case you'd overlooked it, please note http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1548366-fyi-to-potential-mod-users-tesvsnip-mods-on-the-nexus/?p=24571946 by Zilav. Simply copying and editing records can easily lead to an invalid .esp, unless you really know exactly what must be changed, and the ramifications of not changing it correctly (or at all).

Zilav seems to be saying that localised strings appear to be more important in FO4 than Skyrim, and the use of flags relating to these has changed. The trouble is, until the CK comes out we only know what is in the .esm's, and we can't be entirely sure what constitutes a valid .esp. An .esp that seems to work acceptably could still lead to problems for mod users down the line, as was found with corrupt .esp's created before the Skyrim CK came out.

At the very least, please put a prominent warning on any .esp based mods you upload, so less knowledgeable mod users are aware of any potential risks that they'd rather avoid. Knowledgeable mod users may be very happy to take a risk for an awesome mod

lol are you kidding? ive never used snip in my life. Every plugin i have ever released was made from TES5Edit. Those patches were made to help the community because AOS conflicts with sooo many other mods since it edits so many types of records. I did it as a favor to the author and to the many users whose games were heavily conflicted by the AOS main plugin. Why would you ever think that those plugins were made with snip? I didn't even write/publish them until LONG after tes5edit was around. So, that means you're just throwing insults around like a child; neat. Why don't you go pick another thing I've worked on and try to insult that, too. Real mature

wow this is a joke right? I have never used snip, I don't even know how to use snip, have never had it installed on my computer. Every single plugin was made by hand editing the records in TES5Edit. If you would like, I could send you all of the different versions and all of my files so you can dig into them yourself and see. Why on earth would someone use snip when creating patches with "copy as override" in tes5edit is so easy if you know how plugin records are structured. Copy as override, add master, sort master, copy as new record, check for error, etc. These are the basic functions that I used to build all of those patches, and I spent many hours doing that tedious work for every single patch, including patches for the official DLCs and over 20 of the most popular mods. You probably didnt do your homework and confirm that the patch didnt have any other conflicts with your personal load order. Some of the records added by AOS were very commonly edited by many other mods, so it is entirely possible that even though you used a patch for one of your mods, there could still have been other plugins in your load order that were modifying that same record. The easiest way to tell is by loading your entire load order into TES5Edit and checking yourself. But please, do not make unfounded claims against me when I have done nothing but dedicate hours upon hours of my time to creating plugins (patches) to help other mod users have a more stable game while using AOS. Are you really that angry because I called you out for being dramatic?

The reason that they are no longer necessary was because I told the author that I could not keep releasing a whole new set of patches (which was over 50 different plugins) every single time he wanted to release a new master. It had nothing to do with my plugins. It had everything to do with a lack of a concerted effort between him and myself. I had no idea what changes he was making to his plugin, and every time I had to just wait for the public release so I could then determine what changes were made, and which of those changes needed to then be carried over to the respective patch. This had to be done immediately after every single AOS release (which could have happened at any time, any day of the week, without any advance notice) and I would have to immediately stop what I was doing in real life, hunker down at the computer for 12 hours to re-do the entire set of patches at a moments notice, with a ton of feisty mod users begging for updated patches (See comment section: "omg AOS was updated like an hour ago, where are the patches omg my life is going to end if i dont get my updated patches NOW! hurry up"). And I got tired of it. If him and I had been on the same page, or he kept a better record of what records were being edited or changed in his master plugin, it would have made my job a lot easier. In the end, I could no longer offer support for AOS, because it was eating up too much of my time, and was hurting the amount of time that I needed to work on my thesis (as in, my real life obligations). So, please, before making accusations about things you know nothing about, do your homework.

Users of Settlement Supplies Expanded (Snip) are reporting crashing even after deactivating the mod and the author is writing it off as nonsense.

Arthmoor, could you please talk to him? I worry because this mod is one of the most popular on the Fallout 4 Nexus and he's insisting nothing is wrong with Snip, which is going to have a negative effect on modding as a whole if people don't heed the warnings.

It's amazing to after the Skyrim debacle with SNIP, that people are repeating the exact same mistakes, putting their heads in the sand. At least this thread is serving its purpose and getting the word out. But, I guess some people will believe what they want to believe.

I've been hard at working helping many unassuming mod authors get started with FO4Edit.

It's still experimental, I know, but there's a big difference between potentially harmful and provenly harmful, which is what Snip is.

True enough. Fortunately FO4edit is a lot more flexible with the solitary exception of adding new constructible objects, which is still a lot easier in TESVEdit. Fortunately you can use FO4edit to copy the data structure to a new plugin with a new formID and make the changes in hex, as I don't think you can insert those lowest level subrecords (stuff like FVPA, CNAM records, etc). Or at least I don't know how to.

Wow. Just read the forum discussion over there. The mod author clearly has let his popularity go to his head. It looks like he is afraid to admit what is obvious. Too many people reporting problems to ignore, I would think.

SMH.

Thankfully the Homemaker mod is much more reasonable so there will be a safe alternative to that mod very soon.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to update the OP or provide a link to FO4edit or the xEdit utility (which I believe is the same thing?). Searching FO4 Nexus gives no results.

In that case - I apologize for a wrongful accusation :

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, because there was a third party involved looking in detail at your plugins, who found the tell-tale signs of Snip .. So it could have been him using Snip instead at some point - I dont know for certain, what is certain to me is one of those patches at some point in their updating to be compatible with AOS 2 did have problems which were a good indicator of Snip use, though now I realise it possibly was not you using it.

But I guess we will never find out now that your file has been hidden since.

Edit :

Also if nothing else .. our little exchange here does go to prove that use of such inappropriate tools does sow distrust in the community.

Use of Snip in Skyrims early days made me avoid anything created before the Creation kit was released ( first upload time stamp on nexus mod pages ), and seriously study mod authors methods before I trusted any mod in my load order.

I have no doubt that FO4's save games are going to be just as unforgiving as Skyrims were for bad practices becoming embedded in long term play through saves.

5 years down the line after much wasting of time people will be troubleshooting random problems ( as they still do with mods like Moonpath for Skyrim ) and eventually find via FO4Edit that x plugin must have used Snip and the author ( like TroyIrving "Settlement Supplies Expanded" currently deleting peoples posts and burying the evidence ) was probably the cause of many an argument about seemingly unrelated plugins.

Good idea. Done.

Fair enough. For what its worth, the last patches I ever wrote for AOS were at least two releases prior to AOS2. There were "a lot" of people not happy when I pulled my support, scrambling to get the patches they needed/wanted. I didn't give much advanced notice about pulling support either. One day, a huge AOS update came from out of the blue, I had a ton of things going on in my personal life, and it tipped me over the edge. At that point I just said "enough is enough, I can't do this anymore, I'm sorry." My inbox was flooded with disgruntled mod users, begging for the updated patches. But I was unable to oblige them. If I had to take a guess, if there truly was at any point SNIP being used on my plugins, this is the point at which it was done. By some third party desperately trying to get patches put together, using my most recent version as a base, after I had rescinded my support. I have no way of knowing what happened. After I pulled support, I also took about a year off from Skyrim altogether; modding or otherwise. When I finally picked back up after about a year away, I saw that AOS had come out with a new release, AOS 2, and that the patches were then being offered on the main download page. Aside from noticing that, I never looked into the new patches, downloaded them, or anything. I saw that the mod seemed to be flourishing still, as I knew (or, hoped) it would, and someone else seemed to pick up where I left off with providing all the patches that were needed.

If what you are saying is true, and somebody truly did use snip to create AOS patches, it was not me. As a sort of low man on the proverbial modding totem pole, I have learned how to mod by following those ahead of me. Looking up to and learning from guys like arthmoor, zilav, sheson, nico coin, madcat, etc. etc. (and plenty others out there, the list goes on and on), I have always aimed to do the best work I can, to do it the right way, and model it as closely as possible to how these seasoned modders would do it. The rest of the community would be well-served to do the same. I would/will never tarnish my name, small as it may be, by going against community convention and using tools like snip.

As an aside: On one hand it does seem a bit foolish that I am having to defend myself at all, but on the other hand I have tried very hard to adhere to the unspoken conventions of the community, and thus do not want my name associated with anything like snip