...and that is exactly the issue. The noobs go charging in blindly and f*&% up their game and then go and whine about bugs on the tech forums.

I think the big problem is that, however careful and scrupulously accurate you may be in your use of TESVSnip, other less knowledgeable mod makers could still produce corrupted .esp's, and there's no way for a mod user to tell which mods may (or may not) cause trouble down the line. And I gather some of the savegame corruptions caused by TesvSnip in its early days didn't show up quickly, so players could end up with a junk savegame after many hours of gameplay.

It's good to know that TESVSnip has been improved and enhanced. However, until any changes in format from Skyrim to Fallout 4 have been discovered, anolysed and understood, and incorporated in TESVSnip or any other tool, mod makers and users should still use caution.

TES5edit, which has been continually updated, improved and tested by large numbers of mod makers and users over 4 years, still comes with a 'use with caution and backup your original mod' warning - and quite rightly so, as Bethesda has never released a full specification for the .esp and .esm file formats, let alone for any changes they may have introduced in patches.

For Fallout 4 the same warning should be accompanied by klaxons and flashing lights. Again, for any third party tool, not just TESVSnip.

All true. As TESVsnip is a known offender and more than one FO4 mod author mentioned using it when asked how he created the plugin, I felt it urgent to get this out there now, before it is too late.

...back to page one...

Still checking this tool out. But, it might be a viable way to create a .esp file. Not sure, yet.

http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/16/?

As I commented above, I'd say that exactly the same caveats would apply to this tool as any other - use with caution to create mods, and use such mods with caution and being aware you may have to discard your savegame as irretrievably corrupt somewhere down the line.

Even though this tool is conservative in what it allows mod-makers to do, it's still based on reverse engineering data files with no published specification. Which means there's still an element of risk.

I'd say that any tool is worth looking into; and that any responsible mod creator should put a big "Use at your own risk" warning on a mod created with any third party tool, especially this soon after Fallout 4's release.

Thanks for the PSA. I had planned to wait until the GECK was released to start throwing mods in anyway (aside from the texture mods you previously mentioned). I remember the issues with corrupted mods and losing my first Skyrim character to them. I shall not repeat that mistake.

The only mod I'm currently using is "Eyes of beauty" a texture replacer for the eyes. No esp just textures.

This is a good post, make sure it stays on the front page for everyone to see.

Just claiming that anything that has touched a tool will cause saved game corruption (due to comparison with a previous game) without actually pointing out any instances of it happening isn't particularly compelling.

Yes, using ESP mods right now is definitely an 'at your own risk' type deal - but if you can't point to any evidence, you shouldn't claim things with this level of certainty.

I agree. The overall message should be proceed with caution. Even conservative tools like The Patcher tool I referenced should be looked at skeptically.

Bumping my won thread, as I feel that this is an important issue that is basically being ignored.

Maybe raising this on Nexus where mods are actually hosted and from where they're downloaded would be more useful than here?

My apologies if you've already done this, but there doesn't really seem to be anything to say about the issue in this thread that hasn't already been said. Use caution, know what you're doing making mods, know what you're risking using them, and if you're a responsible mod-maker let people know your mod may carry risks.

Does Dark0ne (or other mod site owners) have a position on this?

Until people actually start finding mods that cause savegame corruption, or the data format has been reverse-engineered sufficiently to positively identify corrupt .esp's, then it's speculation about what mods may or may not have corrupt .esp's

Good point. I think Robin (DarkOne) would probably take the position that all mods are "use at your won risk". I won't bump this again. Point has been made.

(As far as finding mods that cause save corruption, I think that took a while to evidence itself, previously. We'll see, I guess.)

Dunno about Nexus, but I'm not going to be allowing anyone to host a mod on our site that's been made with Snip. The risk is too high.

The problem with this is that by the time we have proper tools to prove definitively that Snip causes damage, the damage is done, and it's 8 months from now and there's another huge mess to clean up. Since we've already proven it conclusively once, and Snip never got fixed to correct it, why should it be necessary to redo the proof?

That's true. And, indeed, one conclusion from what I said (the "may or may not") is that until we can prove that a tool (again, not just Snip) isn't producing corrupt mods, then all mods produced with any tool may be corrupt.

But I could have phrased it better.

Personally, I regret that mod authors aren't putting clear warnings on their mods. I think that's irresponsible. If users were clearly told that an early mod could corrupt their savegame with the damage not showing up for many hours of gameplay, then it would be a simple case of 'buyer beware', and if they found a mod that worked well enough for them for the duration of a playthrough, then good for them.

But presenting mods as if there's not even any question of their reliability... not a good move. And whatever tool a mod author uses, and however carefully they use it, it's only their assurance that they didn't get it wrong.

There seems to be 2 different issues here, first being the use of a specific tool (snip) that is known to cause problems. And the second being the general case of building .esp files that might cause save issues. I dont know how the ESP files in Skyrom/Fallout 4 work but if its anything like Oblivion, Fallout 3 or New Vegas then (as long as you aren't working with complex records like dialog or world space or cell records) it SHOULD be ok to just duplicate a given record (e.g. a game setting record or a weapon record or a character record or whatever it is) and then change values and have it still work. I did exactly that for Fallout 3 (copied & hand-edited records) without ever having save game issues.

I would say the best hope for Fallout 4 modding (until the GECK is released) is for https://github.com/TES5Edit/fopdocto be updated with correct Fallout 4 data formats (work seems to be happening on that already) and for a FO4Edit to be produced that can properly copy records to an esp file where they can be edited,.

"as long as" and "SHOULD be" are the operative terms here. Get a good modder who really knows what they're doing, and you may be fine.

How to tell the good from the bad is the difficulty.

[edit]

Heh. I feel in programming, and modding, an apt misquote is;

"There is no 'should be'. There is only 'will be' or 'will not be'."

Which is why waiting for FO4Edit is the best option. Assuming its written properly and spits out correct data files, its much harder to get things wrong using such a tool than with other things out there (snip, that patcher thing etc)

The problem of course is that in order to get a properly working FO4Edit, the guys need access to the data that's been changed. There are numerical flags which are no longer what people think they are in the master. There are entirely new records with numerical fields they couldn't even make wild guesses at without the CK to refer back to. Several existing records have additional new fields in them. Fallout has an entirely different set of things like dialogue and quest conditionals. NONE of which has been decoded by anyone yet.

In short, reliable tools need a reliable source. There is only one reliable source: The CK.

There is evidence, we're just to lazy to search it for you. Anyone knows, obviously you don't. This thread alone gave you more then enough information to figure on google what's the problem with TesVSnip. I feel the only one that is constantly and deliberately missinforming people is you. This is no greater conspiracy to bully an individual that created a particular tool, this just a straight forward message saying "if you use this, your game might get blowen away, so prepare to abandon your character at one point". There's a difference between could and will, nobody said it will, but it could break your game.

If you happen to find the proof, you will also find that the creator confirmed his own tool was messing up ID's, so let's just put an end to you speaking in his defense when all walls have already collapsed, right?

I posted a single time in this thread prior to this post right here - that's not 'constantly' doing anything.

In any case, my objection was that people were saying will, not can. Yes, using mods can break your game - that's the case even with developer-provided tools, much less things hacked together for previous games - but if you can't point to any mods that have broken a Fallout 4 game due to being made with TesVsnip, you shouldn't claim that using any mod created using it will do so (which is what some people in this thread have been saying).

Also, if it takes eight months to discover that saved game corruption has occurred, then that's not corruption that matters - especially not to people willing to mod the game so early in the games life-cycle prior to proper tools being developed for it.

Just started using NMM again...

How do we tell which mods have esp files? There seems to be no warning popup or wa to list a files contents to know if they contain and esp or not.