Amen to that.

:foodndrink:

As Styles said, in the future making the new level cap raise optional.
And hell, I'd like to cap it at 25.
How about an option to cap it at 25?
I can't "choose" not to level up after reaching 25 so I can't do anything about it unless they give me the option to cap it earlier.

Could we please have the Skilled trait back?

And finally, make the game world feel more alive to our level.
No level scaling like FO3 did.
Just have like I said that if I complete Crazy Crazy Crazy then super mutants have certain % chance to spawn at certain areas. (Since Tabitha is gone super mutants have no reason to come back there and they'll start wander off to other areas.)
But keep the highest % of them spawning at certain areas "around" black mountain.
And then have stuff like Powder Gangers getting a new weapon supplier (They raid stuff right? That means that they used the stuff they raid to trade with someone.) at lvl 15 or something and have them upgrade their equipment and spread out around NCRCF a bit more. (Showing up close to Novac and a little around Primm but not around say Jacobstown.)
It would up the challenge a bit and keep the game world fresh and spontaneous at times.

We are forced to level past the set cap of 30 in DLC. If they keep raising the cap we keep going higher in level. We have no say. We will have to make really stupid characters so we don't get alot of skill points, which we are forced to spend. This is about game balance. Yes we can choose not to use skill books. We can choose not to pick over powering perks but we can't choose to level up, we are forced to use skill points. Which makes unbalanced Master of all Super Gods like FO3.

Edit: We are forced to take Perks

I miss the old games where we could decide whether or not we wanted a perk or if we even wanted to use the skill points.
Most of the time one did for both but it'd be nice to not "force level up".

I miss it as well. I miss being able to go past 100 in skill points but at the cost of most skill points. something like 4 skill points for every one past 100. Having that system back will balance the game. That and Skilled.

New Vegas is a good job with New Vegas but the problem comes from DLC and raising the level cap. Older system is needed for FO4 and I am suprised the Devs did not give us Skilled

Well, looking at the current traits I'm not surprised.
They all svck.
The old traits gave huge bonuses while give huge drawbacks.
Skilled is just like that, huge bonus with like 4 to 6 more skill points but huge drawback with 1 less perk.
The new traits... They feel dumbed down.
Wouldn't have bothered me "as" much if there were "more" traits to choose from.
But out of the one's there I only find Good Natured and Trigger Discipline to be worth a damn for most characters.
I pick Heavy Handed for Unarmed though, but the rest?
Awful...
Just awful... (I guess Built To Destroy "can" be good if one has Raul but otherwise I don't see any good coming out of it. :shrug: )

*sigh*

I at least hope that "one" DLC will give us "some" new traits.

I disagree. With an intelligence of 8 you get 490 points by level 35. 490 points across 13 skills does not a wasteland god make.

Don't take Comprehension and don't read any skill books.

Sure there is. It means knowingly avoiding progression of getting better - and because it is a consciously made call, it has no relation to poor decisions or lack of willpower.

What's the point of exploring or character progression, if these are the very things I must use my willpower on to avoid using the rewards they offer in fear that I become too powerful? It takes half the fun out of the game and gives it an artificial feel. And if I have to do it in order to find a preferable experience, is it not then forced upon me?

(note, I'm talking about the subject in general - not pointing fingers in any particular direction)

Just created a new character to try this out.
Here's my new character at level 1 with default. (no level up skill points or skill books)

Barter - 32 (tagged)
Energy Weapons - 30 (tagged)
Explosives - 30 (tagged)
Guns - 15
Lockpick - 15
Medicine - 21
Melee Weapons - 15
Repair - 21
Science - 21
Sneak - 15
Speech - 17
Survival - 17
Unarmed - 17

Okay, so I get 490 skill points with 8 INT.

Barter - 32 - 68 skill points
Energy Weapons - 30 - 70 skill points
Explosives - 30 - 70 skill points
Guns - 15 - 85 skill points
Lockpick - 15 - 85 skill points
Medicine - 21 - 79 skill points

I get 33 skill points to spare.

With 8 in INT I can max out half the skills.
Remember that 5 skills are combat skill and one does not need more than one.
So removing 4 random combat skills we get a total of 9 skills.
I could max out 66.6% of the list without educated or skill books.

I wouldn't say that it makes a god build either, but let's look at how it will turn out if the next DLC gives 5 more levels.

With a level cap increase we can get 70 more skill points with 8 INT.

I had 33 poinst over from the last time so I got 103 skill points now:

Melee Weapons - 15 - 85 skill points

Okay, not too bad right? One more skill maxed out, let's look at level 45 then:
Repair - 21 - 79 skill points.

Okay, that's another skill maxed.
Now I got 8 skills out of 9 maxed out though, that means I got around 90% of the skills maxed out.

/End.

Everybody seems to be assuming that the level cap will keep increasing... but...

... what if it doesn't?

If it doesn't, then all these arguments are moot.

Alot of us are hoping it does not. To keep things balanced. 30 is find 35 is pushing it. There are people asking for 50 :banghead: . If other DLCs add more levels past 35. Then we need to figure out ways to balance the game so it does not become a broken mess. gabriel77dan last post is a good example but did not include being forced to pick perks.

I want level 25 cap.
I think 35 and even 30 is pushing it.
Would be nice with an optional thing to cap it at 25 instead.

Why do you suppose leveling is automatic, anyway? I don't remember it being automatic in either the older Fallouts or the older Bethesda games. I remember playing Oblivion (endlessly, endlessly...) and eventually not even sleeping anymore because it got boring.

35 is pretty decent for New Vegas. It's high enough that a player can build a badass but low enough that they can retain some individual characteristics (with some lovin' gimpin'). I don't CARE too much if it goes up more but I hope it doesn't. Enough is enough.

New vegas isn't nearly as balanced as fallout 3,even on the hardest level.Talk about cheating yourself through.....all you have to do is get two companions,make them AGGRESSIVE,and let them fight everyone while you cower in the corner.They will be knocked unconcious,but usually come around to finish the fight.(had one die once,forgot what level)The only tough creatures are the alpha male deathclaws,or the "mother" deathclaw.(miss the albino rad scorpion,mutant overlord) The nightstalkers are a little bit of a nuisance,but with animal perk that's taken care of.

If memory serves me correctly, you play on a PC. If I haven't mistaken you with someone else, don't complain. Just mod it.

There are a ton of useless perks you can take that will not affect your character specialisation. Play guns? Choose explosives perks. Play explosives? Use melee perks.

I love that responce :rolleyes: . What about all those that don't play on PC? I can say "just mod" it for people that want alot of levels with a perk for everyone (those that play PC). Because I play PC I don't get to post my ideas/opinions because "I can just mod it?"

Picking perks no matter for what skill still effect that skill. Which means in time I will become good at those skills even if I don't use them. Master of all. Its not really good for Role Playing. I don't want my characters to end up with all the skills maxed. Hence the topic "Game Balance." I don't want to have to handicap my New Vegas Characters like I do with FO3. A good RPG will have many ways for a player to balance out a character like FO1 and FO2. I can also create a master off all in the originals if I want. With FO3 I have no say, I'll end up a Demigod in no time.

Don't see the reason for complaint. You have the ability to adjust the levelling however you like.



I don't disagree with the option for levelling you suggested. You generally make good suggestions. Once again though, with the GECK, you have the ability to make these suggestions a reality, not only for you, but for all the other PC players.

Aside from that, Bethesda have to please the majority, and part of the appeal of RPGs is making strong/er characters. Always has been. Otherwise, I might as well play RDR, or GTAIV (which are good games in their own right, no hate, disclaimers etc).

While part of the appeal of RPG's is becomming stronger as you play through it, I think that Fallout 3 went too far and allowed/forced us to become too strong by forcing (especially with Broken Steel) to become JONTMOA's which removed almost any semblance of challenge from the game.
Another large part of RPG's appeal at least to myself is the challenge you can get by not being able to be a "Legendary Master Expert" at everything.


While PC players may have access to mods and thus be able to change things in their game to try to bring it closer to their 'ideal' game. Console players don't and at least some people on consoles do not want to be Forced to become uber JONTMOA godlings able to do anything and everything. So for those of us who want a challenge, we should be able to choose not to allocate skill points and not to select a perk, especially if they continue increasing the level cap and available skill boosters.
With the way we level up at the moment, if they continue to increase the level cap with DLC's the console players are Forced to become ever more powerfull regardless of whether the player wants to or not, which for those who want a challenge is just as distastefull as not becomming a JONTMOA is for those who want to be all powerfull.

I'm making this response in general to provide a counterpoint to the "mod it" arguement for those of us who play New Vegas on consoles and don't want to become 'too powerful' (in the individual players opinion).

I kind of like that the game isn't too challenging. I can focus more on the storyline and the lore that goes into these worlds. I'm a big baby and use VATS as often as I can. I actually think that FONV was much more difficult than it's predecessor. Groups of monsters instead of stragglers. The deathclaws are near impossible to kill, if you don't have the required skill you can't pass a speech or barter check, there's no gamble at all, if you don't have it you're screwed. The guns aren't as good, it actually takes time to load your gun. You can't just cruise control this game like FO3. I kinda miss my cruise control.

I'm level 35 and I still have trouble with the hordes of deathclaws and giant radscorpions.

petty petty, some of us find the challenge in maxing out all god like! modding is cheating, raising lvl caps is't. like he said don't do it you don't want to. I bet you could create a lvl 50 build that is as "gimped" as you want with low int(less skill points per lvl.) while the rest of us can make our god build after many, many "regular" builds if we wanted to! Higher lvl cap w/ reballenced mobs + new perks=awesome!! Besides why should non pc be punished by be stiffeled. If you have it on pc mod the cap down....just saying.

excellent questions OP. my preferences are as follows:

i like becoming a super character, someone larger than life. the key is how fast you get there. you can easily beat the game at level 25. does it really matter how many levels you can go after that? i like always gaining experience points and going up levels. but i also enjoy the "old school" rpg's that require you to grind 5-10 levels to get better gear and to pass certain missions/boss's etc. NV is well balanced and very enjoyable up until level 16-18. then i feel like i start growing too fast for the world to keep up. maybe the xp required for each level should be more, starting at level 6. to compensate, i only carry three weapons, and use a pistol as my primary. for the record, i believe in an unlimited level cap.

dlc/dead money: much arguing about the rewards of dead money on these boards. i like the rewards for dead money. i'm giving obsidian extra cash, i expect some goodies in return. if you find the rewards break the game for you, don't use them. it really is that simple. crying nerf and change is, in my estimation, forcing others to play your way....which is absolutely anti-fallout. according to this philosophy, there should be no choice for difficulty levels either. force everyone to play very hard/hardcoe. above all, it is about player enjoyment. and the player gains the most enjoyment by playing their way, gaining what they want out of the experience. if one enjoys being an untouchable force and plays on normal/very easy, i'm not going to tell them they're wrong. if one is unable to control themself and buys 1000 weapon repair kits and 500 stimpacks, and then cries to the dev to nerf, yet in the next thread the same people say there's not enough freedom in NV. foolishness.

the fallout philosophy is freedom. everything should be designed to give the player maximum freedom, be it with difficulty, weapons, levels, or story.

Wow, this thread came back from the grave.

I guess we'll know in a few days whether the level limit will increase. I wonder if there will be more skill books?

I honestly hope the answer to both is 'no', as my characters are already pushing the limit at L35.

Sure, I could forgo using the new skill books, but I shouldn't have to do that in order to maintain what little semblance of balance is still left. Even without comprehension one book per skill is still 39 total skill points, which can go a long way towards maxing out yet another skill in addition to the nine I have already gotten there.

What some folks seem to be forgetting is that even though there are 13 total skills you do not need to raise more than two combat skills, which means there is an effective total of ten skills. If I can max nine of them by L35 without extraordinary measures then something is off; maxing more than about 5-6 skills by the cap should take an inordinate amount of build planning and in-game effort, but as things stand now I can do that with a 6 INT by level 20 without even trying.

For those saying we should avoid using the higher-tier stuff: that's a non-starter because the whole point of gear progression is for the character to eventually be able to use the best items, usually when facing the toughest opponents. I do have a character who stopped with Reinforced Leather Armor and does not use the top-tier weapons due to concept; however, the rest of them do use the best stuff, and for them there is no challenge whatsoever because the enemies do not scale to meet the power levels the player can reach.

I do not play on Very Hard, although I probably should for the added risk, because it does not work the way a difficulty increase really should. In FO1&2 there were three settings: Easy, Normal, and Hard, and the latter really meant it. You dealt less and took more damage, skill checks were more difficult to pass, random encounters were (a lot) more dangerous, and so on. Enemy HP did not change, though, so you did not have critters exhibiting Albino Radscorpion Syndrome?. Since I do not care to pump 14 clips of .44SWC into one critter I do not raise the slider, which is rather disappointing as I really would like to for at least one character so that the Power Armor and hand cannons I have stockpiled would actually be tested rather than stomping all over everything.

In FO3 I ended up creating a set of rules that placed strict limits on what I could carry, keep, or use, because all too often I ended up with more ammo and weapons than I would ever have a use for. I also implemented strict rules on SP allocation because I found that pumping a combat skill+repair+medicine through the ceiling right away made the game stupidly easy from about L10 on. I avoided porting these rules over to F:NV for a while since hardcoe Mode and weapon skill/stat requirements covered a goodly portion of my concerns, but repeated testing showed that those were not enough and I have had to reintroduce the rules in order to keep from overpowering everything from an early level. The SP allocation I am still debating with myself about, due to more perks having high skill requirements than in FO3. Were the game properly balanced I wouldn't have to do any of that, since it would already be taken into account during combat and the level-up screens.

Since when does this game have to be hard? If you want it hard, put up the difficulty slider and self gimp. Otherwise, there is no way to please the people who want to grow and be powerufl, and the people who want to be weak and helpless.

Personally, I don't think it's a Courier issue, it's an enemy issue. Almost no enemies actually use stimpaks and drugs such as psycho/med-x; this is one of the main reasons the Courier is even powerful in the first place. Drugs drugs and more drugs.