I'll have to give Taddeus a spin again. I"ll be curious to hear about your results when/if you give PTE a run through. I still stand by it as being one of, if not the most comprehensive overhauls of the games balance, not to mention the most up to date and well maintained.
Though I do runa few other mods with it. Wakim's spell balance components, NOM, Venombytes overhaul, GCD, and Thief Experience Overhaul, and my own compilation of tweaks,

The one part I thought worth sharing was the Enchantment overhaul
fEnchantmentConstantDurationMult = 120 (was 100). This increases the cost of all constant effects by 20%.
iMagicItemChargeConst = 12 (was 10). Increases charges on auto-generated constant effect items by 20%, to match the cost increase.
fEnchantmentValueMult = 200 (was 1000). Decreases the cost of enchantment service to 1/5 of normal. Makes it more accessable, especially with a tightened economy.
fEnchantmentChanceMult = 1 (was 3). Makes it three times easier to enchant an item yourself. (Difficulty is based on "size" of enchantment, i.e. how many of the item's enchantment points it takes up.)
fEnchantmentConstantChanceMult = 1 (was 0.5). This number is multiplied by the previous one for constant effect items, so with 3 and 0.5, they had a difficulty multiplier of 1.5; now it's 1.
fMagicItemRechargePerSecond = 0.01 (was 0.05). Other mods change this, usually to .02 or .03. I'd drop it straight to 0 and force you to recharge items with soul gems, if it weren't for considerations with charged artifacts and the fact that soul gems aren't nearly common enough.
iSoulGemMult = 30 (was 3). This makes it so a soul gem can hold a soul with size up to 30 times its gold value. Combine this with reducing the gold value of all soul gems to 1/10, and that Petty Soul Gem with a Nix Hound in it is only worth 10gp, not 100. More of an economy fix than an enchanting fix, though it also makes it easier to buy soul gems (charged or otherwise).

Finally, for the enchanting skill itself, I've set the progression rates as follows:
Recharge - 4.0
Use Charged Item - 0.15
Enchant Item - 8.0
Cast On Strike - 0.05

This comes from a discussion I had with Tejon..wow..that was 4 years ago. Still, it makes it so you can do a constant enchantment with almost any soul. This is balanced by the fact that tiny souls have tiny power, you can't do much. Still, I always liked the idea of the explorer mage, lost in the woods. Gets attacked by, and kills say a scrib, a rat, kills it, captures the soul, and binds it to say..his socks, adding a tiny light spell to them to help him not trip over any more sleeping beasts.

I like the sound of those changes. I like the overall way of going about it -- how is the balance in play?

I am sort of playing around with alphaish patches for TAD balancing that incorporate Alaisiagae's Left Gloves Addon, Better Clothes and Complete Armor Joints (I may toss this last one out, as I find I like the effect of exposed elbows and all that for the relevant armors). I've gotten it mostly sorted out -- let me know if you (or anyone else) wants to try them out.

I'm currently checking PTE out right now in the editor -- I really like the merchant, container, and leveled list changes a lot. I will probably try it out with the item changes stripped out to get along with TAD.

My biggest gripe about the economy is that there's very little consistency, even between various pieces of the same armor set, or between similar strength enchantments on basic rings and amulets. One will cost you 6 Septims, another will be 300.

I don't mind the absurdly high pricing on Daedric, Glass, and Ebony items. They're rare enough at low level, so if you're rushing straight out an grabbing them, then the issue is with the placement and defense of that item, or your "powergaming", not the pricing. The pricing on basic weapons and armor is already low enough that if you clear 2-3 bandit caves, you're most likely going to get a couple hundred Septims worth of loot for your effort, a quarter of which will be spent on repairs, aside from the possibility of getting a scroll, potion, or beverage worth over 100 Septims by itself. That's not a huge sum, compared to the cost of training or "better" gear, to go risking your life over. It's the high-level gear which can be looted at low level, the soulgems which can be sold off for a fortune, the totally unguarded and unsecured items in crates and barrels which you can just take, and a few other little exploits that everyone quickly learns about that make money so valueless after a rather short time.

I like the concept behind PTI, but in practice, I found that it just made life miserable at low level, while merely denting the fundamental problem at higher levels: after you manage to buy yourself some "acceptable" quality gear, there's nothing that you really need to spend all that money on. The game really needs a couple of good "money sinks".

The only solution I can come up with is having it so repairs are dependant on the value of the item you're repairing. If you use Nordic Fur armor, repair costs (both paid and self-done) should be minimal because of the bottom-of-the-barrel cost of the materials. If you're trying to repair Daedric armor, it should either require a Grandmaster repair hammer or a certain amount of "Daedric repair parts" stripped from other Daedric pieces, at a significantly higher cost than for more mundane materials. In short, any bumpkin adventurer can stumble upon some remarkable piece of equipment, but only a well-off noble or wealthy entreprenour should be able to afford to use it and keep it maintained.

that's actually an excellent idea, and i don't think it's been suggested till now. what do you modding guys think? is it doable? i think it would need to change daedrc lvld lists a bit to insert those repairing parts, or add the option of breaking apart armour to be used as spare parts.

This seems to be the main culprit & needs fixing.



Courtesans, Houses, possibly upkeep, powerful companions for hire (for a certain duration), awesome gear, bribe money, pricey alchemy ingredients. Just throwing things out that could constitute money sinks whilst offering value to the player. Maybe bribes should be more difficult to succeed in & have more pronounced effects (i.e. bribe a cityguard to follow you around/defend you for a bit! or greater effects in quests); useful ingredients could be made rarer and pricier; certain shops could offer gear that are out of your pay grade for a long time to come; etc. etc. This may require recourse from other mods.




I like the repair idea, but i don't think decent equipment should be so readily available. Anyone try venombyte's? Also perhaps this: rich traders who have a decent amount of trade money will only accept goods of a certain quality. Scrappy traders accept anything. Trade money resets everyday to simulate the trader designating a specific pool of trade money. This means scrappy but (relatively) pricey enchanted items that are more abundant at higher levels can only be sold to scrappy traders who have a very small amount of trade money, whereas if you get some genuinely decent gear, you can sell to rich traders. To me this is more realistic but more importantly the player's revenue is controlled without making 'scrappy' enchanted items easily purchasable by the player at a low level from vendors whilst (in effect) reducing their monetary value. The number of rich traders can further be adjusted/reduced. I dunno maybe only some high ranking Mage Guild NPCs and some big names in Vivec.

Okay. I've imported your settings into my ongoing game and will test them. I really like the sound of it.



I like what TAD does for that aspect of things so far. Being able to sell, say, Iron briastplate from a base value of 290, and even Chitin Daggers from a base value of 70, makes the early game gentler. Meanwhile, the drastic value reduction in high-end loot reins the other side in. Combine with, say, Gato's changes to enchanting and soul gem values, and it sounds like it should swing things at least in the right direction.

Again, if you want to try it, I can put my TAD balancing patches for the MPP et al. up somewhere.



I'm no modder either, but it does seem like it would be very difficult to implement. But they sound like good ideas to me.


Again, I think inflating prices and values, and basically nerfing the other big money sources, may take care of this at a different level.

While the alchemical ideas are good, I'm very skeptical of the ability to implement that sort of scarcity of ingredients in the game, mainly because no one is going to play with *just* a rebalancing mod. The problem is that there are lots of mods that add ingredients, some as their primary purpose and some merely incidentally (with some purposely adding dirty refs to BM and TB ingredients just to maintain compatibility with Morrowind-only installations). Leveled-list merging, which is, after all, an absolute necessity, adds goodies from many other mods, and just throws scarcity out the window. A fix for that would likely be very invasive and lose a lot of compatibility, it seems. That combined with increasing the price of ingredients seems like it would be contrary to good game economy. I could, of course, be wrong, but that's my impression so far.


Actually, I think it makes sense that 'scrappy' enchanted items would not be too much more expensive than normal ones. This is high-fantasy, in which magic is commonplace and no big deal. I think the disjunction between the actual banolity of magic in the game, and the prevalent conceptual paradigm (consistent with myth and the root of genre-fantasy -- the LotR, which is, actually, low fantasy) that magic ought to be dear and out of reach of commoners, undermines game balance, as the conceptions at the root of those two ways of looking at magic availability are incompatible.

While I think magic items and high-value loot should be made much less available -- as much as possible while still stimulating the player to hopefully peek into the bandit's crate -- I just don't think a rebalancing approach should (or can reliably) depend on making them so. If magic is available in 12-packs, it's going to be septim-a-dozen. So, given these things and other factors discussed here, I think devaluation is the solution, both for game balance and realism.


[By the way, so far we have been fortunate -- but we've broached the subject directly, and I want to head off the usual peanut-throwing that might come from scoffing lurkers: Realism in a fantasy game. Yes. No one is really arguing that "fantasy" or "magic" are "realistic." What players who talk about "realism" want is internal logical consistency and a sensible relationship among its elements. All good science fiction and fantasy designates certain conventions, certain departures from reality, and the reader/player/viewer agrees to suspend disbelief on that aspect. "Realism" aficionados are just people within a certain taste band who prefer more rigor. Even the supposed casual player who scoffs at those who talk about realism in such games has his own threshold; it's just a different one.]

I'm curious to see if more people have thoughts on the matter here. It's been a few days and I don't want to see this thread lost. I've been trying to get in some game time to really test my current mod load, so far it's awesome, but I really need to see it more long term. I'm finishing up in Seyda Neen and moving on to Balmora shortly, see how my pockets fair in the big city.

Actually, to confess the same crime, I have also been, eh, getting in game time.

I quite like the changes, so far, but then I've only reached level 12 under GCD (which is, what, consistent with 20 vanilla, time-investment-wise?). I do like the effect so far -- enchantment is a very fun aspect of the game, and I like seeing petty enchantment become viable. After all, before, I never wanted to enchant until I could get The Big One, since even a minor enchantment cost thousands. Now, I can throw on a little heal or a little Attack boost for 10 seconds on an item if I like.

Of course, I can also use a Common gem to make a +40 Enchanting or +40 Alchemy item (after all, you only need it for 3 or 4 seconds, since enchanting/potionmaking are instantaneous) very easily myself (after brewing an Enchantment boost potion), without the aid of an enchanter, which seems potentially imbalancing. And I am feeling the squeeze for more soul gems, but I have only been doing Balmora faction quests, so I can't speak for long-term availability.


On another note, I am sort of compiling my notes on what each item rebalancing mod offers that is truly special and more widely-appealing. I have my own thoughts, but I would love to know how everyone -- particularly longtime community-members and modders -- feels about different aspects of rebalancings of these sorts of things with mods that you have used or looked at:

• Armor and damage ratings for weapons and armor.
  
• Lengths and speeds for weapons.
  
• "Health" (durability) of weapons and armor.
  
• How rare Ignore Normal Weapons Resistance should be.
  
• Weights for all items.
  
• Gold values for all items -- armor, weapons, clothing, misc. items, etc.
  
• Enchantability ratings for all items.

As I noted before, I'm currently testing with a TAD balancing scheme, and have some definite thoughts and questions about its choices, but I'll hold off on my own thoughts for now. Any observations, particularly from use, would be appreciated.

Has anyone considered adding multiple qualities of AR per armor set? :lightbulb:
Could be one way to increase the variety of armor and help balance loot from NPCs - i.e. include lesser quality armors of the same type (lower AR) in leveled lists for spawned NPCs and save the best quality (highest AR rating for that armor) for NPCs that explicitly have the armor type.

That would also give the player incentive to quest for a matching AR set.


[edit] The more I think about this... might as well also adjust the durability and value for the lesser quality armors of a given type; could also have AR overlap between armor types, the lower qualities equal to or less than the next best armor's highest qualities - that would also give incentive to use a lesser armor type within a class of armor because of better AR rating/durability/price.

I had a similar thought myself. Low level bandits should have rattier stuff then they do currently. Not only lower quality, but it should be beat up. Especially after a fight with the PC, bandit armor should be pretty messed up, no getting 100% armor, more like 50 or less. You either have to repair it yourself, or sell it for a pretty marked discount.

Those enchanting adjustments look interesting. I think I'll try them myself. *snickers* Might give me a reason to develop Enchant more on my Bard character.

I think it's a great idea. Battered/Shoddy/Quality/Superb/whatever versions of existing armor and weapons, even in the absence of new models/icons, sounds like it would be a good addition.

Though it would be fine (and probably mostly necessary) with existing models/icons/textures, I wonder how much custom-modded weapons and armor could be drafted into service for this? (Obviously not the more exotic or fantastic fare -- just puristic stuff visually similar and stylistically consistent with the originals.)

I have seen it done in small ways in this and that mod. Looking at PirateLord's Creatures (which, as I see it now, is an excellent foundation, along with NoM and whatever else, for whatever we go forward with), I see he gives some other intermediate things to fill gaps that fit into original categories fairly well, like various grades of Dremora weapons and armor (lower-quality Daedric, if I get it correctly). From MWA we get shalk chitin armor (obviously a chitin variant). And so forth -- these may be good for implementing as part of that sort of scheme.

If some artist wanted to do mild retexturing to make for quality differences (say, rust and dents for lower-quality versions, and filigree, runes and etching for higher-quality versions), that would be incredible.

But all this is expanding the scope of the potential project pretty significantly -- I'd be a little timid about committing to it as a small project, but it would be very worthwhile if we get some excitement and broad support going. It's on the drawing board.



From what I saw in [someone's -- can't remember who] thread asking about forcing higher levels of armor/weapon health degradation, it seems very difficult to do, and would likely involve fairly invasive scripting that would likely decrease easy compatibility (at least as discussed -- I think they were talking about disintegrate armor and weapon effects being applied to all killed humanoid enemies).

I thought I'd post my results so far, testing under a very similar layout, with your own tweaks incorporated into my game. (The only thing I am missing from that is Thief Exp. Overhaul.)

Level 17, and have poked around in tombs and bandit caves a fair bit. Have not been enchanting items, nor have I been skill-training (except for an early burst in alchemy, enchantment and herbalism skills a la Andoreth's Advanced Herbalism). I have made a handful of moderate-cost (about 400 gold) custom spells, and have bought probably about 20 or so stock spells (mostly ranging from 70 gold to 400). I have been buying low-cost ingredients, and hoarding all my ingredients. Under these conditions, I am pretty desperately scrabbling for cash. It comes into my hands, I blow it. I spend a bit of extra time hauling out weapons and armor from killed enemies (though not all, as TAD's inflated weapon weights make it an extra pain) to sell them, and it only helps a little. I'm sure it will level out soon, as I have only found one random Daedric loot (and sold it for about 1,000 or so, which is over half of its TAD-modded value).

Fights are often painfully difficult, as I'm also using MWA and have left difficulty slider at default. I have had to console-kill a couple just to move on (the worst being some sort of uber-nix-hound that kept on killing me in 3 seconds flat, knocking me down and preventing any self-healing). A lot of them, however, I have to really work hard for, summoning ghastlies, using little item enchantments, and powering up on spell buffs and defenses beforehand to have a chance. Which is good, no?

So, so far, so good.

Something I want to throw out there is an idea I've been kicking around for armor and maybe weapon rebalancing: a global script that would dynamically add effects (feather/burden being the main ones, I'm not sure if there's much else that's really appropriate) based on skill and type of equipment you've got, a la Dodge Mod.

What I'm talking about is this: if you've never worn armor before but go to the tradehouse and buy yourself a tin can of a suit of armor, it's gonna make a difference how you carry it. If you put it in your backpack, that's well and dandy, that's what the "weight" (which I think should be more closely aligned with the concept of encumbrance) value's for. But if you strap it all on, you're definitely not going to have the same encumbrance level. You won't know how to move in it, it will feel awkward, and you're gonna slow down. On the flip side, if you live in your armor, you might only remember you're wearing it when you take it off. The effect would obviously depend on type of armor; most light armor is definitely something you strap on, whereas something like an ebony set looks more like something you step into. Something similar could possibly apply to weapons, but running around with a sword in your hand isn't the most fun thing to do, no matter how used to it you are.

At any rate, I really hope something comes out of this. I've got enough patience to make my game playable with 200 mods running, but rebalancing mods still scare me.

Do the current balance mods work well together? Someone earlier mentioned Venombyte + piratelord economy + creatures X.

I use my own combined and modified balance mod, I combin pte3.3 and some part of vgi v9 and some little fix mod , and also , my own changes.

Interesting.
Could you please post your full mod list?

Me too.

As to the feather/burden script, it sounds more realistic, though personally I'd be more favorable to it either making for a fatigue drain or a Magicka casting cost increase for heavier armor. A scripted burden penalty for low armor skill makes it sound like the early game will a bit painful. But it is a good point you raise.



They do for me, although I carefully pick and choose the modules. I figured out my own sort of solution to PTE merging difficulties (i.e., you can merge it, but you have to manually remove merchant NPC entries from the merge file -- I find that impractical and too much of a burden, since I tend to change something and remerge mods once or more per day) -- I tore the NPC entries out of it and placed them in a separate file loaded after the Merged Objects file and unchecked when I run TESTool's objects merge. You can see how I went about it in my list below, though as a caveat I certainly don't claim particular expertise or that I'm not somehow screwing something up. I'm learning as I go. But it does seem to work.



Sure.

Quick note beforehand: Where I have a mod that adds weapons or armor that depart from TAD's standards, my rule is that I am not allowed to use them (so they become house decoration) -- after all, if I am testing TAD's numbers, it makes little sense to use equipment that is out of compliance with them. For the most part, though, I only use such mods where a TAD rebalance is available (unfortunately, these are all older than the latest versions of the weapons mods, so there was a bit of tweaking necessary).

Companions made the early game a bit easier, though they've been stuck in the house lately.

And by the way, with this layout, the lore dialogue that talks about Daedric ruins being horribly tough is actually true. These puppies start out with Daedric Bat artillery blasting me from the sky, then send out a wave of Scamp chaff to whittle down/exhaust me a bit, followed by the real nasties that resist/reflect magic and that I whack, and whack, and whack, inbetween healing, oh, about 100 times before killing.


GameFile0=Aduls_Master_Mod.esm
GameFile1=Assassins Armory.esm
GameFile2=Better Heads Bloodmoon addon.esm
GameFile3=Better Heads Tribunal addon.esm
GameFile4=Better Heads.esm
GameFile5=Bloodmoon.esm
GameFile6=Morrowind Advanced.esm
GameFile7=Morrowind Patch v1.6.5-BETA.esm
GameFile8=Morrowind.esm
GameFile9=THE Facepack Compilation.esm
GameFile10=Texture Fix - Bloodmoon v1.1 [Slartibartfast].esm
GameFile11=Texture Fix v1.8 [Slartibartfast].esm
GameFile12=Tribunal.esm
GameFile13=Ward of Akavir.esm
GameFile14=ASGW v1.0 [Sandman].esp <--- This is Armored Skeletons Gone Wild
GameFile15=Advanced Herbalism - Planter Add-on [Andoreth] (clean).esp
GameFile16=Advanced Herbalism v1.1 [Andoreth] Full with Flora Glow (cleaned).esp
GameFile18=Amulets and Rings v2.1A Full [Daduke].esp
GameFile19=Assassin's Armory v7.1 Arrows TAD Balanced (cleaned).esp
GameFile20=Assassin's Armory v7.6 TAD Balanced [Gluby] GCD NoScript Version.esp
GameFile21=Atmospheric Sound Effects (ASE) v3.04 [Duncan] TB (cleaned).esp
GameFile22=Authentic Signs - Inns and Taverns v1.1 [Nigedo].esp
GameFile23=Barabus's Fireplaces v2 [Barabus].esp
GameFile24=Better Almalexia v1.1 [Plangkye].esp
GameFile25=Better Bodies v2.2 [Psychodog Studios].esp
GameFile26=Better Clothes for Tribunal [Keazen].esp
GameFile27=Better Clothes v1.1 [Better Clothes Team].esp
GameFile28=Better Heads Argonian Playable Heads Pack v1.1 [Motoki].esp
GameFile29=BetterClothes_Patch.esp
GameFile30=BirthsignsAMFun_BM.esp
GameFile31=Bones [Qarl].esp
GameFile32=Book Jackets - Bloodmoon v1.0 [Daleth].esp
GameFile33=Book Jackets - Morrowind v1.0 [Daleth].esp
GameFile34=Book Jackets - Tribunal v1.0 [Daleth].esp
GameFile35=Clean Atmospheric Cities - Balmora v1.0 [Lucien Fairfax].ESP
GameFile36=Companion Project v3.1 Customized - Julia.esp <----- These are my companion babes/mules
GameFile37=Companion Project v3.1 Customized - Naeara.esp
GameFile38=Companionable Cats v1.1 [Emma].esp <--- Um, not really essential to my testing, but my two little boys love them
GameFile39=Creature Pack v1.1 [Mephisto].esp
GameFile40=Creatures.esp <----- PirateLord's Creatures X
GameFile41=DB Armor Replacer Expanded with Ranks v2.0 DDBA.esp
GameFile42=Daedric Invocation v1.1 [Endrek] (cleaned).esp
GameFile43=Decorator+ (Balanced).esp
GameFile44=Dirnae's Slower Walk [Dirnae] (cleaned).ESP
GameFile45=Disturb_the_dead.esp
GameFile46=Disturb_the_dead_BM_SA_Addon.esp
GameFile47=Dog Companions v2.0 [Emma & Grumpy].esp
GameFile48=Dremora Lords v1.0 [Quorn].esp
GameFile49=Dwemer Armor Replacer v1.3 [Sandman101].esp
GameFile50=Entertainers [Official] (cleaned).esp
GameFile51=GCD v1.08 with Startscript (COMBINED).esp
GameFile52=Gluby's Creature Loot Mod v1.11.esp
GameFile53=Gluby's Nascent Game Rebalance.esp <---- This is my own ongoing tweaks file, which incorporates many of Gato's suggested changes
GameFile54=Guar Followers Fix.esp
GameFile55=Healers v1.0 [Raejak] (cleaned).esp
GameFile56=Improved Followers v1.3beta [Lurlock].esp
GameFile57=Improved Positioning v1.0 [HeyYou].esp
GameFile58=Improved Skilled Magicka [PirateLord] (cleaned).esp
GameFile59=Index Fix v1.0 [claudekennilol].esp
GameFile60=Key Replacer v1.4 + Key Renamer [shadowwriath] (cleaned).esp
GameFile61=Key Replacer v1.4 [Daduke] MW+TB+BM.esp
GameFile62=Mashed Lists.esp
GameFile63=Master Index Journalfix [DeusXMachina].esp
GameFile64=Master Index Upgrade v1.0 [Garren-Poobah].esp
GameFile65=Master_Index [Official] (cleaned).esp
GameFile66=Merged_Objects.esp
GameFile67=Minions of House Dagoth v1.0 [Neoptolemus].esp
GameFile68=MixedSignposts.esp
GameFile69=Morrowind Advanced (Required).esp
GameFile70=Mournhold Sewer Fix [Enmesharra].esp
GameFile71=NOM 2.13.esp
GameFile72=NOM PirateLord's Creatures X patch v0.5 [Gluby].esp <--- Secret development
GameFile73=Neo's Unique Creatures [Neoptolemus].esp
GameFile74=New Argonian Bodies - Mature.esp
GameFile75=New Khajiit Bodies - Mature.esp
GameFile76=Pearls Enhanced - Colored Pearls Add-on.ESP
GameFile77=Pearls Enhanced.ESP
GameFile78=PirateLord's Trade Enhancements v3.3 [PirateLord] MERGEABLE CUSTOMIZED.esp
GameFile79=PirateLord's Trade Enhancements v3.3 [PirateLord] NON-MERGEABLE NPCS.esp <--- This loads virtually last in load order
GameFile80=Propylon Guild Guides v1.0 [Sandman].esp
GameFile81=RAMF_Mer_for_NPCs.esp <--- Loads very late too -- not friendly for merging
GameFile82=Rational Wildlife v1.0 [Max].esp
GameFile85=Service Requirements v1.3 [Vanhikes] WGI version (cleaned).esp
GameFile86=Seyda Neen Hill House v1.0 [Sgaileach1] (cleaned).esp
GameFile87=Sgaileach Estate v1.21 [Sgaileach1] (cleaned).esp
GameFile88=SkipTutorial1.0.esp
GameFile90=TAD Balanced Aduls Arsenal.esp
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GameFile92=TAD Balanced Armors v1.2 Full Version (cleaned).esp
GameFile93=TAD Balanced Armors v1.2 MPP+LGA+CAJ Patch v0.7 [Gluby].esp
GameFile94=TAD Balanced Objects v1.2 Full Version (cleaned).esp
GameFile95=TAD Balanced Objects v1.2 MPP+BC+LGA Patch v0.9a [Gluby].esp
GameFile96=TAD Balanced VA_EmeraldYmsidril.esp
GameFile97=TAD Balanced VA_WMIndoril_Armour (cleaned).esp
GameFile98=TAD Balanced Weapons v1.3 (cleaned).esp
GameFile99=TAD Balanced Weapons v1.3 MPP Patch v0.9a [Gluby].esp
GameFile100=TAD_AmuletsRings2.1UpA.esp
GameFile101=TAD_MWA1.82.esp
GameFile102=TAD_Mist Clean House_spear.esp
GameFile103=TF Fireplace Replacer v1 [TextureFreak].esp
GameFile104=Tools [SirLuthor].esp
GameFile105=Tribunal Bloodmoon Ingredients [PCC].esp
GameFile106=Tyrthyllanos Magicka Regen v1.0 Slower [Tyrthyllanos].ESP
GameFile107=Undead Revival v1.666 [AstralFyziks] (cleaned).esp
GameFile108=Unique Banners and Signs v1.11 [Notelaers] (cleaned).esp
GameFile109=VenomByte's Economy Fixes v1.1 [VenomByte] GameStats.esp
GameFile110=VenomByte's Economy Fixes v1.1 [VenomByte] ItemLists.esp
GameFile111=VenomByte's Economy Fixes v1.1 [VenomByte] MWA182.esp
GameFile112=Vivec Signposts Plug-in [Reznod].esp
GameFile113=WGI v9 Modular [Wakim] - Dialogue.esp
GameFile114=WGI v9 Modular [Wakim] - Game Settings.esp
GameFile115=WGI v9 Modular [Wakim] - NPC Spellcasting.esp
GameFile116=WGI v9 Modular [Wakim] - Spells.esp
GameFile117=Westly's Master Head Pack X v1.0 [Westly].esp
GameFile118=Ymsidril Armour and Scimitars v1.0 [VagabondAngel] Ebony Replacer.esp
GameFile119=Ymsidril Armour and Scimitars v1.0 [VagabondAngel].esp
GameFile120=abotGuars.esp

Looks like a great build!
Some of your personal tweaks to these mod I hope make it into whatever overall balance mod comes from these talks.
Can I ask were you found all those Taddeus addons? The assassins armory patch is intriguing.
So are you really enjoying Taddeus's armor and weapons stuff? You've made it sound at times like you find the sledgehammer approach too broad. Have you tried other armor and weapon balancers? Either the one in PTE, or other stand alone ones?

Most balanced addons can be downloaded from http://web.archive.org/web/20070703021914/www.tadnan-hideout.com/MW/main.html. Unfortunately, as Gluby stated, some of them (including Assassin's Armory one) are for outdated versions.

Thanks!

Yes, the Taddeus addons are there, but if you like I can send you my personal archive of them combined into one RAR. I am quite happy to share my betaish TAD updates as well, though I want to test them more before I would, say, put them up at PES.

As for enjoying it, it seems good so far. I am at the point where I'm starting to feel the effects of the lower ceiling on armor/weapon effectiveness, though it still is quite workable, and the game in any form provides no shortage of tools for overcoming particularly nasty enemies. I do like it a lot more than vanilla, as I now feel like I'm picking on enemies at least my own size, but, yeah, there are a lot of things I would prefer to be different. I wouldn't so much say I find it too broad, but that I find that it narrows distinctions a bit too much, and actually decreases granularity (you can narrow the overall range while still providing slighter differentials between different items).

One thing I definitely love and strongly favor is TAD's affect on gold values (in combination with the other mods that increase costs and make merchants tougher). I'm not so much set on its specific numbers, but I think it's in the ball park.

I really would like to know if anyone has played a TAD game way into the late game, and whether they found the nerfed high-end weapons and armor really to make it overly difficult, or to cause any other problems. I mean, Daedric going down from 80 to 42 is rather significant, but if it works, it works.

I have not tried any other weapon/armor rebalance to anywhere near this degree (and they do have to be tried to extensive degrees to get a real sense of them). I tried the Objects and Game Balance Mod for a while, and I recall not having any very specific impression one way or another in terms of economy or gameplay impact. I have not tested the others in an ongoing game. Playtesting is hard work, but I'm on it!





I also updated Assassin's Armory's TAD rebalance from v7.1 to v7.6 (again, betaish), and can share that too.

Again, let me know if anyone wants the updated TAD beta, and I'll throw it up on rapidshare or something.

I'd certainly be intrigued to try out your beta bundle. I miss assassins armory. Some really neat stuff in it, but it just didn't fit well in PTE.

I really like it, too, along with Adul's Arsenal -- I like the realistic/traditional weapons additions.

Okay. I put up (I think) all of my TAD testing specialized files.

The full TAD balancing pack I compiled a while ago (along with my patches for it) can be found http://www.mediafire.com/?gajitymamnm, and my specific tweaks I'm using can be found http://www.mediafire.com/?jrozn1jzz4d.

Let me know if there are any problems with it. The TAD files, as I have them, require Kahkahra's Complete Armor Joints, Alaisiagae's Left Gloves Addon, and Better Clothes with Keazen's patches.

EDIT: Oh, and obviously the MPP too.

EDIT 2: The GCD combined file is just, I'm pretty sure, the main file merged with the v1.08 patch and the StartScript -- I avoided the rest because (1) the brittlewind fix is essentially a dirty ref now with the MPP's having dealt with it, (2) I like BAMF better than BBB (better balanced birthsigns), and (3) I'm under a similar impression that the Restore Potions fix is also a dirty ref because the MPP has made the same fix (i.e. restore potions have 1-second duration, instead of being instantaneous).

As a side note, I may migrate this discussion into one or two other drawing-board threads, each focused on different areas (EDIT: economy and gameplay), to make it a sort of brainstorming discussion. There are a lot of things I'd like to get input on -- what people can generally agree to on which mods should be integrated or assumed (and the securing of consent/permission/support/collaboration with authors of those mods), opinions on general number ranges to be used in values and item stats, and other nitty gritty.

Being fairly new to this sort of thing, I'm not sure if they should be entitled WIP threads (after all, it's still mostly in the conceptual if stage), but the POLL thing is distracting at this point, methinks, and I'd like to make it attract the right sort of attention and interest.

Sound like a good idea? And, if so, what should we call it? What would be a good name for such a [potential] project? An interesting thing is that I only later found out what Adventurers actually is, because the word "TC" is an immediate interest-killer for me. Something that would stand out, the tradition seeming to be three- or four-letter acronyms, but that doesn't overstate its case. The IRMP -- Integrative Rebalancing Morrowind Project? Or, switching words around, MIRP? (Can't resist -- Morrowind Enhancement and Rebalancing Project -- MERP?)

Whatever it is, it's very much my hope we can get some sort of thing that allows those two major goals -- integration and rebalancing, since those are the two egregious lacks in the game (at least from the perspective we have discussed here). And it would, of course, be intended to serve a third goal improving playability from any perspective, not just a puristic one.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Bah. The usual preview-preventable corrections.

This is welcome. I use Assassin's Armory, Better Clothes, Better Clothes for Tribunal, and Left Glove Addon (among others I don't see in your list) and I'm currently in the process of building up my own compatibility patch. Please believe that's a tedious process. Your ESPs should make my life easier.

Thanks.