My pleasure! Glad it helps, though I can't promise it's without mistakes. A lot of it was done in the tired wee hours, and I've got about 12 irons in the fire at any point, so I may have made a few errors in haste (I was mostly focused on getting it immediately playable). And I do believe! If you go further or do fixes, please do share them.

EDIT: Oh, by the way, what sort of compatibility patch exactly are you building?

Morrowind Overhaul Project. You can call it MOP.

At this point, given the amount of serious discussion going on, I think it's totally appropriate to flag the news threads as WIPs. It's also a good way to get the ball rolling- It's basically saying saying "This is project we're starting. Give your input." as opposed to "Give us input because there's this totally awesome project that's eventually gonna happen, even though we don't really know when it's gonna really start up or anything..."

It was me who asked about applying disintegration to NPCs armour, mainly since I feel their gear doesn't take enough damage from battles, since it's balanced to favor the player so their gear doesn't wear out so fast. This would result in higher repair costs introducing a better money sink, as you might just now ignore some armour as being too damaged to return a profit.


Prices of weapons and armour in Creatures is balanced using PTE rules.


I was thinking that encumberance should be globally lowered. This would make burden and the like effective against NPCs, who don't have as much gear as the player.
But, to counter it, the player could buy equippable bags that give a CE feather effect. The down side is that these bags take up an armor slot (say pauldrons, belt bag and something for back). A looter could then have less armor.

I like the idea in regards to encumbrance. I use Mainframe's Backpack mod, and I have a few people who play my build, they all have used the backpack that provides 0 AR and takes the helmet slot as they figure it is worth the sink in AR.

I am thinking of adjusting it so they do provide a minimal AR and come in Light, Medium, and Heavy varieties to accommodate more character types. Having more bag types with a similar effect at differing magnitudes and taking different slots I think would be very cool. Wouldn't need to use them all the time, but handy in a pinch.

I've actually been looking for this kind of global rebalancing mod for a long time. I've been using adventurers but it adds alot of other changes that conflict with other mods I would like to try. But I really don't want to give up the rebalanced prices and armor/weapon values. I've been tossing around making my own mod for a while and if this goes forward i would be willing to help with it.

Right on.

MOP? Hmm... The word Overhaul seems a bit too expansive -- for example, I really want to stay away from most areas of graphics. What's the generally-perceived over/undertone with "Overhaul"? I personally have none (except a mental association with Oblivion's OOO, which I never played -- I lost interest in Oblivion fairly quickly after playing it for a while when it came out and reading about its purposely-gimped moddability), but I know there's a lot of community touchiness about large-scale mod integration that I'd prefer not to trigger where it doesn't even really apply.

One thing I really want to try to avoid is, for example, the name effectively acquiring an unofficial YA prefix -- as in, say, Yet Another Morrowind Overhaul... Hey... YAMO -- I like th-- *SLAP!* Okay, okay. I'm in control again.

I figure if we make the acronym catchy enough, with the actual constituent words obscure enough to cause repeated blinking, it may stun people enough for them to look at what it actually is.


Ah, that's right. It would add a nice dose of sense and realism if reasonably doable.



Sorry if this has been addressed before or elsewhere, but wouldn't just making Burden cheaper and more powerful accomplish the same in a simpler way? (I know some mods have done this, but I haven't bothered to use burden spells in-game, so I can't speak for how well they work.)


Awesome -- collaboration is very much welcome.

Seamlessly Integrated Meticulously Perfected Logical Enhancements.

SIMPLE.

That did make me blink, for sure!

As PirateLord mentioned, applying damage to weapons and armor would decrease their value, or at least increase your repair costs, but I had a lot of trouble trying to apply damage to equipment via the limited and awkward commands available in the CS, or by trying to direct spell damage at it.

Seriously reducing the maximum durability of some "strong yet brittle" materials such as Glass (and whatever DB armor is made of) could result in a sharp reduction in the value of such items after a typical encounter, without specifically adding damage to it.

Adding some distinction to the armors might go a long ways too, such as having DB Armor have a High AR but lower Durability (protects well against a couple hits, then it is in shambles as an Assassin should not get attacked if they are good).

SIMPLE is simply great

making a new thread is also a great idea.

now, i've been playing with CS a bit (trying to learn some basic moding so i could be of some use to this), and in the books section i've stumbled across a document that states that a certain someone paid about 2000 for what appears to be a common house. also, telvanni stronghold takes two strong souls and 5k gp to be built, right? but the thing is, one daedric cuirass could then buy you all the real estate in the whole VVardenfell district, ebonheart included. these things need changing. there is no amount of price reduction on any armour type that would make 5k gp a large sum of money. on the other hand, i've already mentioned here how most mod added houses are inconsistently priced. if we're going to be making a lot of changes, and asking for a bunch of permissions, then we might as well get permissions from hose mod makers, and integrate them all into one mod.

i don't have much to say about that armour damaging issue, except that it would be great if we could pull it off. the bag of holding thingy is a good idea, but i'd like to see some meshes for it, so my characters can finally start carrying their equipment, instead of just transporting them transdimensionally. it would be nice, however, if the bags were treated as shoulder pieces, because i like using helms.

More a merged/tweaked replacement esp than a patch actually. When it's done it will include the following mods:

- Taddeus' Balanced Armors 1.2 (light)
- Taddeus' Balanced Enchanting
- Taddeus' Balanced Objects 1.2 (light)
- Taddeus' Balanced Settings
- Taddeus' Balanced Weapons 1.3
- Left Gloves Addon 2.0
- Better Clothes v1.1
- Better Clothes for Tribunal
- CanadianIce's Customizable Robe Replacer
- Generic-No-More Misc Items (I should also mention Generic-No-More Morrowind Clothing, Generic-No-More Tribunal Clothing and Generic-No-More Bloodmoon Clothing which are already merged into the Better Clothes and Robe Replacer esps.)

Taddeus-balanced datas and Left Gloves compatibility will also be implemented for the following mods:

- Assassin's Armory
- Better Armor Rev7 Templar
- Dark Brotherhood Armor Replacer

Taddeus' set of mods may not be perfect, but its strong point is that it is a coherent system that allows (relatively) easy customization of third-party mods. Whatever this yet-to-be-named-project end up to be, it should be designed with the same customizability in mind.

Totally. A serious inflationary rebalancing of value in the game should take all that into account, including dialogues and quest rewards where they no longer make sense. Interestingly, as a side note, an undocumented feature of Taddeus's balancing mods is that they do that, at least for some quests -- the Tribunal museum quests being a notable example. So, yes, I think this is very important to cover as well.


Honestly, I think this would be a bad idea. If mod makers wanted to willingly do so, excellent, but this would (1) expand the scope of the project into some seriously conflict-prone ground (in both senses of the word conflict -- and I don't want to do that -- my intention is that this mod be a foundation, a basis aiming for some level of universality among the targeted class of players, and that would decrease it). (2) Given the famous/infamous hostility of many Morrowind modders to integrative efforts, this would be a dangerous area to tread -- after all, it involves subjective choices from among equally-viable land-use mods. And, as we can see with the beginner's compilation mod currently being discussed, there are community members who vociferously and strenuously object to such things on a purely theoretical/philosophical basis. I'm not afraid of dealing with that, but, here, personally, but I really think it very wise to stay away from mods that affect land use, for the most part, and to be highly selective about the exceptions to that rule, because it would narrow the appeal of the mod in substantial, objective ways.

Of course, I withdraw all that in regard to optional and possibly separately-released add-ons and so forth -- great idea. I just don't want to this project to run aground on the rocks of parlour-philosophy opposition to such non-universal choices.

oh, i thought it was understood that the whole project would be modular. there's no way everyone would like everything that it would change, so it needs to be split up into bunch of optional mods that work well together. i just thought that including an option for rebalancing major house mods might be a good idea...

Very interesting! I haven't even been aware of the Generic-No-More mods. I'll take a look at them.


Stongly agreed. That's a lot of the reason why I have focused a lot on TAD. Whatever we do here, such easy customization is absolutely essential to make it more than the usual project of a few people.

Having looked at them both, I find that Taddeus's spreadsheets suffer from obtuseness and are not very conducive to granularity. They work in fairly significant leaps between values. I am very much considering using Alaisiagae's excellent spreadsheets (see AIM, for example) as a foundation (spreadsheet programming is beyond my skills), as they appear to be quite versatile, and much more easily-understandable.


EDIT:


Good point.

I think my wariness can be explained this way: There is an unusually high degree of touchiness about this (not for me personally). I want to walk cautiously about additions of actual content and land-use choices, to avoid any teapot tempests, focusing for the most part on rebalancing existing content in a highly lore-consistent and puristic way. Those changes are to be modular, and (as AfroKing just pointed out) highly extendable. But, while I think it's a good thing, for cautionary reasons I am not sure we would want to include that sort of thing in the main download -- a separate add-on or extension sounds great. I would like to keep the base set of plugins as universal (again, among the designated category of players) as possible, and house mods are *very* subjective. But that's just my own caution -- what does everyone else think on the matter?

I really like what you're going for here. The balance on many things in the game is way out of whack. The problem is there's not a system that is agreed upon enough that mod makers try to balance their mods to the new system. That's what the dream of this would be for me. When I could add new mods without it killing my overall balancing mod.

That's the plan. Thanks for the words of support! I hope the project can live up to it.

EDIT: Hey, was it you who finally checked Super Adventurers and Varg's fixes? I'd like to hear impressions on those.

I agree about house prices. Should be about x10 the cost. When I was making a "build your own town" mod (which I scrapped due to the extreme scope and effort required to make it), each individual building cost 2000+ septims, so choosing to build every single type of building available would be a massive investment.

2000 Septims might be about right for a Seyda Neen shack. The cost of the Telvanni stronghold includes 2 filled Greater Soulgems which far exceed the paltry 5K cash payment, but it's still dirt cheap for such an imposing edifice. One might also assume that the construction of such a stronghold would go a long way toward furthering Telvanni ambitions for the area, so they're probably subsidizing part of the construction costs.

Housing (conventional middle-priced house) might fall into the 20-40K range, so that rare Daedric item would be sufficient to pay for it with change left over, but not buy the whole neighborhood. I find the Daedric equipment prices "reasonable" in comparison to their rarity and power. It's the glass, Ebony, Orcish, Dwemer, and other such items, which are nearly as pricey but too-common in the later game, that destroy the balance completely, since you end up with far more of it than you can rationally use or "collect".

Actually I got over stocked on daedric and ebony mostly from raiding daedric ruins regularly. Anyway. As far as the telvanni stronghold is concerned from what I understand they don't construct their buildings at all rather they grow them (hence the soul requirements) the 5000 septims is most likely for simply furnishing the stronghold.

I have to agree there. While lore says they're extremely rare, the reality of the game is that you can routinely acquire a substantial stash of them.

They either have to be less valuable to reflect their actual obtainability in-game, or they have to be made really that rare. The latter seems a bit unreliable and impractical, because, as far as I am understanding leveled list merging, anyone using this mod is almost certainly going to be using other favored weapon addition mods -- that's a lot of the fun of it -- and thus merging their leveled lists. Again as far as I understand it, this will throw off the carefully-tweaked leveled list balance and rarity, right? I'm still a bit fuzzy on how leveled lists are merged in Mash, so I could use some correction or verification on this.

But, overall in regard to buildings, I agree on the approximate 10x number -- particularly since we'll be inflating game currency anyway.



EDIT: Having been thinking about names -- meh, I'm not so keen on SIMPLE, myself. I dunno. Any love on MIRP?

i think one interesting economy mod i tried out awhile back increased the merchant's gold and respawning items by x4, but never made the gold or items respawn. i think it then would actually delete the merchant and spawn a new one in place after a week or two, and transfer disposition over, which would flush the sold excess inventory, and eventually reset the store, done through an activator. i always thought it was pretty interesting concept, but it didn't play well with piratelord's plug-ins, and i since lost it. i liked that it made the player actually have to trade elsewhere once a town was bartered through, and was one of the first plug-ins to make my character travel all the cities of vvardenfell.

Anyone else had a chance to think over things in the last week?
I had hoped to get some play time in, but that didn't happen. I have a taddeus build put together from Gluby's stuff, but haven't had a chance to play test yet.

Yep! However, it's in a sort of lull, along with the NoM patch, until I finish an onerous RL project with a deadline coming up. I still need to get out a WIP thread on this.

Ideas have still be abundant though, that's for sure, so maybe not a complete lull