Thats interesting since to me the economy never really gets me rich unless i work for it which usually means lugging around some heavy ebony from a mine or dwemer artifacts from a ruin. Thats why like you i just play with it because it never felt easy in vanilla MORROWIND to get money. Same with magic people are always saying its under powered or over powered. To me its just right and everything else is just a matter of comfort like wishing it would regenerate as in OBLIVION.

Thats the way with MORROWIND its completely enjoyable on its own but mods are so well done it adds another extremely fun choice when playing Bethesda games :foodndrink:

That's a very good Point, Hellbishop.

I agree with what you say. Better than what I wrote.

Mhmm. Now that's some interesting point of view.
Obviously I can't agree. This said, I keep in mind that thousands of players out there play Morrowind with no mod at all. Hence we can deduce that they like it as it is and they are satisfied with the way it works.


Well, ? superseded ? may not be the right word actually. I should have said that the changes from my custom esp better fits the way I play Morrowind. :hehe:

Taddeus' Balanced Settings does the following:

For my custom esp, I just imported the tweaks from GooglyBoogly Economy 1.1 and HotFusion's Economy Adjuster:



The other GMSTS affected by my esp are:

fBribe10Mod : 35 -> 5 (BlindEye's Bribery)
fBribe100Mod : 75 -> 40 (HotFusion's Economy Adjuster)
fBribe1000Mod : 150 -> 80 (BlindEye's Bribery)
=> Bribery is made harder.

fRepairAmountMult : 3 -> 4.5 (VenomByte's Economy fixes)
=> Cost of repairs and effect of successful repairs have been increased.

fRepairMult: 1 -> 0.75 (VenomByte's Economy fixes)
=> Repairing with equipment is made less effective.

iAlchemyMod: 10 -> 1 (GooglyBoogy Economy)
=> This sets the price of player-made potions to 1/10th of their original value.

iTrainingMod: 10 -> 25 (GooglyBoogy Economy)
=> The cost of training has been increased by a factor of 2.5.

The merchant module from HotFusion's Economy Adjuster is also implemented :


On top of this I have another mod that makes the traders restock after a week instead of 24h.

After verification, none of the tweaks from Taddeus' Balanced Enchanting are covered by my custom esp. So I might give Taddeus' mod a second chance.

I'm a big fan of Piratelords economy balance myself. Sadly as others have pointed out, it really only works if you don't use any other mods that add objects to the game. It's part of the reason I had to turn off MCA, it was just too imbalanced in a PL economy.

Good points. There is definitely a subjective element here, but, at the most objective level, there is indeed a rough sort of balance in the vanilla game that sets both a ceiling and a floor on gold income, and sort of finagles costs somewhere around that.

It's pretty much an issue for those who prefer a certain style of game. Personally, I would regard the game economy as broken not at extremes of the top or bottom of its scale, but in the middle. It is true that it is fairly difficult to make huge sums of gold unless you mod the creeper/mudcrab merchants, even if you spend half (or more) of your playtime just making the rounds to merchants. And it is true that it is very difficult to be low on money as well, as you've always got some Daedric goodie (or a 4 full sets of DB armor) to sell for 3.8% of its listed value.

But it's nonsensical in the middle, to the point of meaninglessness--at least for me--what with the prices for items and services, when you're always running around with a surfeit of items that can buy anything close to you. (And I mean unmodded, not with uberlewt mods.)

I imagine it's fair to say that it's more conceptually broken in terms of making its gold economy meaningful and challenging, than it is in terms of allowing you to acquire hundreds of thousands easily. There's a lot of ground inbetween, and it definitely is inconsistent from a logical point of view. It kind of mars it for me, but that's me.

Nevertheless, again, those are good points on the contra perspective. And, as AfroKing said, it clearly works at a functional level for many.




Those little tweaks go a long way. Taddeus's balancing mods struck me as quite nice, though I thought he was a little more heavy-handed than I would have been about it. (Example: Daedric Cuirass AR 80 Val 70k -> AR 42 Val 2.5k.) I'm not so sure now, though -- I think I'm going to try some more extensive playtesting with his armor/weapon/item mods.

well, if you really want to make an economy that makes sense, you have to base it off on the value of basic necessities. There are basic foodstuffs included in vanilla, MCraft and NoM, with prices listed.

Let's establish a basic economy unit called DF - money required to purchase three basic meals for one advlt person. An average commoner family needs roughly 4 DFs per day - two for advlt food, one for kids' food, and one for any kind of misc expenses the family faces daily. A commoner in the street should thus always have at least one DF of septims on him, while those in houses should have about two kept in a chest or the like.

Traveling fare to the nearest settlement by slit strider should cost no more than one DF, with the price increasing with distance. Boats should be twice expensive, since there's more work involved in manning them and in their general maintenance. Guild guides should charge a lot more when compared to these two, first because of the exclusivity of the service (5 people in total provide it), and then because of its instantaneous nature - an important fact that i'm sure intelligent people like those leading the guild wouldn't fail to notice and exploit.

War was something that was always left for nobles to deal with, since commoners had other things on their minds. Even when conscripted, commoners never wore any significant armour. So, armour and weaponry should be costly (after all, war was one of the most expensive activities any country could pursue). A set of netch leather armour should cost no less than 90 DFs on Vvardenfell, or 120DFs on Solstheim. Similarly, fur armour should cost about 90 DFs on the isle, and about 120 DFs on Vvardenfell. Chitin armour should be more expensive, about 140 - 160 DFs, because it requires hunting and killing of various large and hostile bugs in order to "skin" them (netch are kinda nasty, but i hate shalk more), and then it involves what is probably a bit more complex process than boiling (used for netch leather) in order to shape the chitin into usable armour. This sets the base values for armours, taking into consideration the availability of the materials needed for them, and the difficulty of making them. Bonemolded armours should be considerably more expensive than leather armours, because the whole process of their making involves some form of magic, if I understood it correctly. Iron should be even more expensive, partly due to its availability, but also due to the difficulty involved in crafting them. Chain armour is another thing entirely. I have a friend who makes chain shirts as a hobby, and I can't decide if he's completely mental, or just a reincarnation of some Tibetan Lama for all the patience and concentration it requires. Steel is more difficult to produce than iron, which should be reflected in the pricing of the armour accordingly. Silver is not really suitable to be used for armour, but any armour with some silver or gold contained should be made more expensive. Ebony is not only rare and thus expensive, but also probably a b*tch when it comes to processing it and using it for any kind of armoursmithing. Glass (never got that quite right, glass in my country usually shatters when struck, and also hurts the most adjacent exposed flesh) is easier to smelt(?) than ebony, but not as rare (or maybe it is, judging by the prices of both raw materials). Deadric armour is both extraplannar and usually taken from a corpse of a tough SoB demon you had to off in order to get the said corpse, two facts that should definitely enter the equation for its pricing.

A simple iron dagger should cost no less than 30 DFs, since it's not a common knife, but a well-balanced weapon with a well-made sharp edge. Other blades should be scaled up according to their length(increased amount of material used) and the increased level of mastery required to make them balanced, sharp and altogether usable. A spear is basically a long wooden pole with a small metal point, so it should cost just a bit more than a dagger. Bludgeoning weapons and axes require more material than blades to be crafted, but are a bit less tricky to balance, so there shouldn't be any significant difference between blades and these two types of weapons of the same material and relative length. Staffs and bows not of wood and chitin never made much sense to me, because other materials aren't exactly famous for either lightness or flexibility. Iron should probably be the most common weapon used in weaponsmithing. Steel is less common and of higher quality than iron. It probably takes more work to turn chitin into a weapon than into an armour, so the pricing should be equal or a bit lower to that of steel weaponry. Silver only makes sense for daggers and arrowheads and nothing else, since it's not hard enough to be turned into a blade that can keep a keen edge. Glass and ebony are both rare and difficult to process, same as with armours, and the same rules for deadric armour apply to the weapons of the kind.

Cutlery should cost up to 10 DFs, for basic varieties, up to 20 for finer, and up to 30 for silver cutlery. Common clothes should cost no more than 10 DFs. Extravagant clothes should cost no less than 150 DFs. A room in an inn should cost no more than 5 DFs. A bottle of the local brews should range between 5 and 30 DFs. The simplest of enchantments should cost no less than 75 DFs. Spellcraft should be priced in accordance with this.

Now, having read this (or skipped most of it, if you're not as mental as I am ), and assuming (intentionally wrongly) that you agree with it, are you sure you really want a balanced economy, or will you just stick to what we're given?

It always annoys me that these "rebalancers" just aim to make the game far more difficult, unforgiving, and frustrating (read: "realistic"). I'd like a rebalancing mod that made Morrowind not play like the clumsy, nearly decade old game it is, but I guess that's not very feasible.

rejndzer87, thats a brilliant post.
That is really really great! Great idea.

Well, I'm not sure where you were coming up with the numbers, but I was sort of outlining a similar idea when I mentioned labor theory of value -- I could have also said "market basket of goods," but the basic idea is some sort of rough basis.

But assuming some kind of reasonable numbers, no, I don't really feel bound to stick with what we're given in order to have an enjoyable, playable, play-balanced game.

Again, it's a matter of what one is looking for and considers fun/enjoyable/worthwhile.




I'm sorry to annoy you. Perhaps you will find a better mod for your preferred playstyle yet, or make one of the type that less annoying people make. Best of luck to you!

well then, the labour-theory economy balance is the only reasonable one in the long run, you'll agree. but, don't you see how much work it would take? and even before the work comes, there's a lot of discussion as to the ratios i've proposed for determining the value of goods depending on the value of DFs (Daily Food). and even if we manage to come up with reasonable ratios, just how much is one DF? if you're playing vanilla, it's no more than 5 gp, but if you have NoM installed, as i happen to have, you soon come to realize that one septim doesn't buy all that much sustenance... if anyone has the will and the energy to do this, then by all means, go ahead. but, it's probably a lot of work.

btw, most of the numbers are pure estimates on my part based on my moderate knowledge of late medieval economy and value of food at the time...

I definitely think NoM is a good starting basis, because of both that part and the fact that it adds at least some reasonable routine drain on the purse. And, really, anyone OC enough to care about a sensible game economy to this point is likely also OC enough to play NoM. I love NoM. :nod:

It also seems like a good idea to assume a fairly low value for 1 septim, which, as you mention, NoM does. The numbers will probably be fairly fiddlable and made a bit less draconian than they might be in a medieval economy -- I mean, after all, this is high fantasy, and magic is commonplace, so that injects a fair bit more dynamism into the economic reality of things (and also gives near carte-blanche to rationalize whatever tweaks are helpful toward actual enjoyable gameplay balance, as opposed to sticking to unabated realism at its cost).

While I do not think one need be too wonkish or overprecise about it, it of course would still be a fairly large project. It might be a worthy one, though.

It would be a long project, I guess I spent 40+ hours on my trade mod.
I like the idea of pricing things based on DF, a lot of work though.


One thing people seem to forget is that unique items (and also in a similar way Glass + Ebony) are in effect priceless and naturally no one would actually be able to pay for them. Being able to sell them is really an instant break of the economy.


Something else I was going to address in another mod was quest rewards. Take for example a balmora quest where you kill someone for house hlaalu. Not only do you get a ton of repair items and a dwemer axe, but you also get 1000 septims as a reward! That's a lot of cash considering all the loot you get too.
The seyda neen tax quest is also similar, you can get a lot of septims which makes no sense really being the starting area for the player. It would be better if the player gained disposition, and perhaps some additional service for being "good", while players who don't hand in the money don't get this service.

PirateLord, will your Economy Trade Fix work with NPCs added by other mods? For instance, if I was to use Tamriel Rebuilt would I see random merchant inventories and bartering with travel service NPCs added by TR?

Thanks.

well, there are some unbalanced (off topic: does anyone else constantly spell balance with a double l and has to correct it all the time?) quest rewards. it's stupid to get more than a few DFs for any kind of critter killing, unless the said critters are at least a bit dangerous. and i'm not talking about them being dangerous to lvl 50 omnigod of death&destruction, but to a commoner who's sending you on the quest in the first place. but killing a man should be rewarded with a few hundred DFs. i mean, WE all know that most of the game is about killing thing, preferably of the sentient nature, but an average MW commoner would still think that our character has some ethical code or conscience, and would like to reward handsomely the ultimate act of violation that changes every man irrevocably. at least that's how i see it.

as for the priceless items, i partially agree. consider that rembrandt is also priceless but purchasable. if i'm a filthy rich hlaalu master (the richest house), or a greatly respected redoran knight (who protects the realm and faith) or a semi-crazy semi-divine telvanni magister (nuff said), than i want those armours available either as a reward, or as a purchasable equipment. now what i don't want is to be able to buy them at your friendly local khull smith. they should only be available at the three district seats, and only at the best smith in each.

I don't know if I'd be a big fan of a DF style economy. Seriously, the economy in Morrowind is about as Broken as I am an Ascended being. I.E A God.

well, i'm not sure even i'd be a fan of DF economy... it would be realistic, if that's what you like, but would it be fun and relaxing? hmmmmm...

Well I for one am I big fan of it. Love the concept. NoM as a base is simply awesome.

This like State Based HP, Leveled Magicka and Magicak Regen are a few I use.

As well as a few of my own, one that changes the spell names and effects to something similar to Oblivions (go on, groan) and a monster rebalancing mod, both of which I'm testing.

No, it won't. It has to add scripts to the traders containers and modify their inventories if they have infinate stock. But, if those traders use vanilla trader containers for their stocks, then those will respawn.


I thought you meant Sleeper


I agree with all that. The first is something I was starting to address.

For the 2nd I have an idea. For compatability a new canton (or buildings on the land) at Vivec is added. Think of this as a dedicated traders district. It has 4 rare goods sellers, one for each house, and one for the player if they are high world rep. These sellers then have a lot of gold and a few items, but they will only trade with the player if they are part of the faction, and also highly ranked/rep'd.
Chuck in some guard houses, a small dock, perhaps a travel service to Ebonheart and it would look good. The various traders in each houses cantons can have their goods reviewed, so they have fairly good expensive but affordable gear, and then check around the world to ensure no small hamlet is selling ebony armour (for example).

I might do this in a next version of PTE, high level players can then sell their gear for full money, but not new starting players.

a wild hoppin' inspiration bunny: ebony and glass a&w can't be purchased at all. you can only order them from your faction's smith once you're of a rank high enough to have your own stronghold. you can either provide the raw materials yourself, reducing the cost, or have the smith provide it, which would cost you an arm, a leg and a kidney.

Thanks for the reply. Since TR is such a hugely popular mod would you consider extending your mod to incorporate TR merchants and caravaneers as well? And maybe repricing some TR-added weapons and armor for consistency with the vanilla ones (as changed by your mod)? Your mod sounds really promising by the way, economy fixes are desperately needed for MW in my opinion.

OKay, I guess I could mean Ascended Sleeper, but they scare me!

Yeah, I don't know, Morrowind does not have that broken of an economy.
I value the opinions of others, really, I do, but it makes no sense that Morrowind's economy is broken.
Could someone explain why they think it is?

I do think it's easy to make money if you have good personality and mercantile. The only thing to really spend money on is enchanting.

Because money loses all meaning very early on in the game because it's so easy to obtain. It doesn't even make any sense. Money is so easy to obtain in MW that it begs the question why anybody in the world would be a merchant or a trader since all that you really need to do is raid a few shrines.

Morrowind is supposed to be a harsh place in which survival is difficult, especially for outsiders. And it is difficult--for the first few levels. There isn't even much reason to play as a thief in the game because it's pretty easy to afford even the most expensive weapons or armor.

So that really just leaves enchanting as the one money sink, and people that abuse that make the game even easier. Personally, I never do it because the game doesn't need to be any easier than it already is.


Morrowind has one of the most broken economies that I can think of in any game.

Uh, what? Money is not easy to obtain. It takes a lot of work to sell enough to get a lot of money. now, maybe you think 5000 dollars for selling things to everyone in Balmora is broken, but I dare say it's not.

Sorry, but saying it's broken without giving a detailed way to prove it doesn't help you much.

Besides, Enchantment is way too expensive to be abused easily. Now, maybe if you did the silly trick where you got 3000 intelligence, etc, then yes, Enchanting is broken, but, lol, wut, it's way too expensive...

And also, how do you get money in Morrowind, seriously? Rob a vault, sell junk to people?
If you think using Creeper for 5000 gold every day is considered broken, I must laugh. THat's too time consuming to be broken.