» Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:51 pm One thing people seem to forget is that unique items (and also in a similar way Glass + Ebony) are in effect priceless and naturally no one would actually be able to pay for them. Being able to sell them is really an instant break of the economy.
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Something else I was going to address in another mod was quest rewards. Take for example a balmora quest where you kill someone for house hlaalu. Not only do you get a ton of repair items and a dwemer axe, but you also get 1000 septims as a reward! That's a lot of cash considering all the loot you get too.
The seyda neen tax quest is also similar, you can get a lot of septims which makes no sense really being the starting area for the player. It would be better if the player gained disposition, and perhaps some additional service for being "good", while players who don't hand in the money don't get this service.
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Something else I was going to address in another mod was quest rewards. Take for example a balmora quest where you kill someone for house hlaalu. Not only do you get a ton of repair items and a dwemer axe, but you also get 1000 septims as a reward! That's a lot of cash considering all the loot you get too.
The seyda neen tax quest is also similar, you can get a lot of septims which makes no sense really being the starting area for the player. It would be better if the player gained disposition, and perhaps some additional service for being "good", while players who don't hand in the money don't get this service.
Both points make sense to me. I really like the idea of rebalancing quest rewards and giving disposition bonuses instead, though I think a retooling of the economy could reduce the problem substantially. What I mean is, if we use a NoM-based economy, modifying service and other prices accordingly, that's basically a rather significant inflation that renders, say, 500 or 1,000 gold a much less serious matter. But, were we to come up with a worthy rebalancing mod, I would likely also use a quest reward rebalancing mod as well.
well, there are some unbalanced [. . . ] quest rewards. it's stupid to get more than a few DFs for any kind of critter killing, unless the said critters are at least a bit dangerous. and i'm not talking about them being dangerous to lvl 50 omnigod of death&destruction, but to a commoner who's sending you on the quest in the first place. but killing a man should be rewarded with a few hundred DFs. i mean, WE all know that most of the game is about killing thing, preferably of the sentient nature, but an average MW commoner would still think that our character has some ethical code or conscience, and would like to reward handsomely the ultimate act of violation that changes every man irrevocably. at least that's how i see it.
as for the priceless items, i partially agree. consider that rembrandt is also priceless but purchasable. if i'm a filthy rich hlaalu master (the richest house), or a greatly respected redoran knight (who protects the realm and faith) or a semi-crazy semi-divine telvanni magister (nuff said), than i want those armours available either as a reward, or as a purchasable equipment. [ . . . ] they should only be available at the three district seats, and only at the best smith in each.
as for the priceless items, i partially agree. consider that rembrandt is also priceless but purchasable. if i'm a filthy rich hlaalu master (the richest house), or a greatly respected redoran knight (who protects the realm and faith) or a semi-crazy semi-divine telvanni magister (nuff said), than i want those armours available either as a reward, or as a purchasable equipment. [ . . . ] they should only be available at the three district seats, and only at the best smith in each.
Very good point on quest rewards for killing. Again, though, I think inflation will handle this somewhat.
On priceless items, those are good points as well, though I would amend PirateLord's statement of the case to be that no one can ordinarily afford to buy priceless items. Really, the selling of a priceless item is a storyline in itself, if treated correctly. Sure, it can happen among high nobility and so forth, but it's special, and I think that it might still be unbalancing for a game with no other serious routine drains except enchanting.
well, i'm not sure even i'd be a fan of DF economy... it would be realistic, if that's what you like, but would it be fun and relaxing? hmmmmm...
I should add that "fun and relaxing" is not the only appeal that such a mod is supposed to have. I might add "engaging, interesting and immersive." Casual players who just want diversion and relaxation are less likely to find what they want in any of these rebalancing mods.
But quibbles about player-preferred goals aside, I don't really think that it would create some big difference of qualitative feel. If it's enjoyable to do it for 50 drakes, it is likely to be just so to do it for 30, or 100, as the case may be, even if something that cost 10 before now costs 30 or 40.
In the end, it merges into the rest of the game and is just part of the environment. All the headache and drag is at the modding level, I think. As for any added challenge, though -- again, NoM is a great reference point; if you like NoM, you are likely to like realism enhancers. But, whatever else the case, I really don't see how this will be so noticeable as to be a drag -- and certainly no more of a drag than NoM is.
Well I for one am I big fan of it. Love the concept. NoM as a base is simply awesome.
:foodndrink:
This like State Based HP, Leveled Magicka and Magicak Regen are a few I use.
As well as a few of my own, one that changes the spell names and effects to something similar to Oblivions (go on, groan) and a monster rebalancing mod, both of which I'm testing.
As well as a few of my own, one that changes the spell names and effects to something similar to Oblivions (go on, groan) and a monster rebalancing mod, both of which I'm testing.
Working on my game balancing mods guide, I can't help but notice that everyone releasing their own rebalancing mods for this and that is creating a rather difficult mess to sort through and get working together. It's sort of a crowded field. This, really, is one of the most difficult areas to get down in a playable game, particularly for a non-modder. And creature rebalancing mods are going to run into a LOT of potential conflicts, most of them benign and mergeable, but some will mesh poorly in the objects merge. I for one think collaborative "cathedral" projects are more the way to go at this point, as one-person rebalancing mods are often likely to either get crowded out by another or to end up crowding out others.
I'm still working on figuring out how the different major creature mods interact when run together -- PL's Creatures (which I always use -- cheers PL!), Noonan's MW Advanced, and about six or seven others.
[ . . . ]
For the 2nd I have an idea. For compatability a new canton (or buildings on the land) at Vivec is added. Think of this as a dedicated traders district. It has 4 rare goods sellers, one for each house, and one for the player if they are high world rep. These sellers then have a lot of gold and a few items, but they will only trade with the player if they are part of the faction, and also highly ranked/rep'd.
Chuck in some guard houses, a small dock, perhaps a travel service to Ebonheart and it would look good. The various traders in each houses cantons can have their goods reviewed, so they have fairly good expensive but affordable gear, and then check around the world to ensure no small hamlet is selling ebony armour (for example).
I might do this in a next version of PTE, high level players can then sell their gear for full money, but not new starting players.
For the 2nd I have an idea. For compatability a new canton (or buildings on the land) at Vivec is added. Think of this as a dedicated traders district. It has 4 rare goods sellers, one for each house, and one for the player if they are high world rep. These sellers then have a lot of gold and a few items, but they will only trade with the player if they are part of the faction, and also highly ranked/rep'd.
Chuck in some guard houses, a small dock, perhaps a travel service to Ebonheart and it would look good. The various traders in each houses cantons can have their goods reviewed, so they have fairly good expensive but affordable gear, and then check around the world to ensure no small hamlet is selling ebony armour (for example).
I might do this in a next version of PTE, high level players can then sell their gear for full money, but not new starting players.
I like it.
[ . . . ]
Yeah, I don't know, Morrowind does not have that broken of an economy.
I value the opinions of others, really, I do, but it makes no sense that Morrowind's economy is broken.
Could someone explain why they think it is?
Yeah, I don't know, Morrowind does not have that broken of an economy.
I value the opinions of others, really, I do, but it makes no sense that Morrowind's economy is broken.
Could someone explain why they think it is?
Uh, what? Money is not easy to obtain. It takes a lot of work to sell enough to get a lot of money. now, maybe you think 5000 dollars for selling things to everyone in Balmora is broken, but I dare say it's not.
Sorry, but saying it's broken without giving a detailed way to prove it doesn't help you much.
Besides, Enchantment is way too expensive to be abused easily. Now, maybe if you did the silly trick where you got 3000 intelligence, etc, then yes, Enchanting is broken, but, lol, wut, it's way too expensive...
And also, how do you get money in Morrowind, seriously? Rob a vault, sell junk to people?
If you think using Creeper for 5000 gold every day is considered broken, I must laugh. THat's too time consuming to be broken.
Sorry, but saying it's broken without giving a detailed way to prove it doesn't help you much.
Besides, Enchantment is way too expensive to be abused easily. Now, maybe if you did the silly trick where you got 3000 intelligence, etc, then yes, Enchanting is broken, but, lol, wut, it's way too expensive...
And also, how do you get money in Morrowind, seriously? Rob a vault, sell junk to people?
If you think using Creeper for 5000 gold every day is considered broken, I must laugh. THat's too time consuming to be broken.
I always love introductions like that.
I find Asdf hits the nail on the head fairly well, personally.
I remember from my days of actually playing and not working on this or that, a distinct feeling that gold in the game became ridiculously easy to come by, but no, not in HUGE amounts. It is just that you always had several objects on you that could buy up the town, and if you somehow misplaced them, you could get more like them in an hour or two of playing. Run over to a shrine. Daedric this, Daedric that. Gary Noonan's MW Advanced attempted to put a clamp on that a bit. But everywhere you look are loot-reducing mods.
One of the problems is an age-old problem endemic to classic-style RPGs. You've almost always got some sort of monty haul dynamic to keep it interesting for players (after all, who wants to keep finding things they already have, wooden cups and 25 silver pieces in each chest?). Of course, then the players march into the Town Surrounding The Inn with a pile of loot that the local economy can't possibly absorb, and that even might challenge the city. What then? Well, in the end, the gamemaster is advised that massive influctions of value into an economy make the economy inflate. So, suddenly, a night at the inn costs 400 gp for such distinguished visitors, and breakfast is 150.
Morrowind can't do this (not at the level of services and goods offered the player). And so the player comes to an impasse with it.
But, again, this is a mostly impressionistic, anecdotal argument (and most will be). And, furthermore, there are many, many different mod layouts used that have significant affects on it, even if they don't specifically aim to do so.
But all that aside, in the end, David, if it works for you, it works for you, and no amount of prodding will enable those who find differently to prove it to you to your satisfaction in the face of your own experience. If you find that a limited money supply is a workable and enjoyable counterbalance to what many consider a grossly-excessive high-value loot supply combined with very low, and often inconsistent, prices for services (again, aside from enchanting), then, of course, you don't need a rebalancing.
At this point, I'm not so interesting in proving that the economy is broken than in finding ways to systematically address it in a comprehensive and community-based way for those who do indeed find it that way and/or who want something more, it is to be hoped, believable and engaging.
