I'm not sure if the download includes the mega spreadsheet I made, but it does allow you to import your own info (or just key it in for a handful of items), and it'll calculate the cost of the item using standard formulas. That's why in PTE there are lots of weird numbers like 2351 septims.


Now the only thing with a DF system is that it'll boost the cost of all weapons + armour by a lot which may defeat the balancing since a simple run in a bandit/smuggler cave will give you a lot of kit at no real expense.

sure, i'd love to



yes, but you risk your life to bring law'n'order to the province, so you get rewarded by getting some nice money. and remember, DF is a cost of the poorest meals possible - it's like always eating cheeseburgers. but, once you start reaping rewards for your heroic (villainous) actions, you stop eating cheeseburgers and wearing clothes bought in a mall. you start buying Mc'Nuggets, or later on derop the whole Mc'Thing and start eating in fancy resaturants, and your garb improves by buying some designer clothes etc... well, that was a lame ass anology... but you got the point... hopefully.... it would still probably be disballanced to an extent, but then, that's why a group of people would need to work on it - to think of ways to improve it. IMHO, it would be a great community project.

Personally, I don't see how saying something like. " is anything but insulting.

It's like saying no one can have an opinion and debate on it or anything.
Unless I'm missing something.

I hope I didn't bias the poll. I checked multiple answers:

-> TAD Balancing by Taddeus et al. (though I don't have all of them in my main game), Wakim's Game Improvements v9, VenomByte's Economy Fixes v1.1, HotFusion4's Economy Adjuster v1.0 (features from both mods being included in my custom esp) and obviously Your own custom-made balancing mod?

Also, after spending a few hours merging/cleaning/editing stuff to make the newly added mods from Taddeus work smoothly alongside the other mods on my test computer, I have to take back what I said about the whole thing not "caus(ing me) a lot of hassles" I did vote: Yes, but it's a difficult hassle.

About Piratelord's Trade Enhancements: it's comprehensive and coherent; I really like the concept and execution. The main reason why I renounced using it is that it requires deleting NPCs from Merged_Objects.esp. And I have way too many mods affecting NPCs to do that.



I too like rejndzer87's DF-based economy idea. It is brilliant IMO. Should it be implemented in some Taddeus-like coherent system, I would be as thrilled as lettuceman44 (alright, maybe not to the point of endangering my pants, but close?).



That's precisely what got me interested in http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=User.EntriesListing&id=190768 back then. They are based upon Taddeus' mods but the scaling is somewhat smoother. Also I did like the idea to make armor rating decrease from heavy to light, while enchantment increases from heavy to light.

Sounds good, then.

Those are good points on cost of living increase, though, yes, it would remain imbalanced. Particularly as there's no universal structure in which to fit houses (for rent/fees), guild membership (for dues -- or is there?), companions (salaries/sharing, except for certain mods) and all that -- that would add the requisite drain, likely. I'm sure this has been tried, but I still have to ask -- has anyone tried a mod that implements some sort of rent and salaries framework that could be used alongside house and companion mods retroactively? I imagine it would involve honest self-reporting -- either that or attaching a weekly-run script via a patch for the specific mod or something like that.




I think people get a little itchy on the harshness trigger finger because of past experience participating in or watching past threads that went down in flames because of heated debate on a fundamental issue involved. As I said, to be fair, this is a relevant topic, and, again, is invited by the subject matter. However, also to be fair, the objection is not so much to debate on the topic in itself, but to extended debate on that topic in this particular venue, which is more focused on methodology gathering general impressions and approaching the balance issue methodologically. Good topic, and nothing wrong with discussing it in-depth, but wrong venue. It would derail the purpose of the thread.



Nope. It is intended to be a "check all that apply" sort of thing.



I was actually really surprised at the number of "yes, I rebalance and it's not too much of a problem" type responses. I imagine those who checked that selection focus more on economy mods. The item balancing portion of it is-- well, at least for me has been a nightmare.



Yeah, we really need an object-merging tool to allow more fine-tuning -- it would be a big breakthrough, I think. Here's to hoping that peachykeen and collaborators will pull something off on that bit!



Me too. I think it's almost necessary now, as we're drowning in irreconcilable incompatibilities (well, nearly irreconcilable for non-modders).

Hmm. I never saw Number One's before. Have to take a look at them, too.

I really don't like what Taddeus did with weights. An axe weighing 64 seems excessively harsh, though I understand the intent (he's accounting for awkwardness of carrying, volume, etc.). And from what I've been seeing he paints with a big brush -- doing my TAD patch for better clothes, I noticed a couple of spots where he literally eliminated some special aspect for unique clothing items, making them like any other in their class. Definitely loses points for eliminating granularity and uniqueness.

Piratelord, not really your mod. Its that other mods mess up the way your mod feels.

Princess Stomper's http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=3408 Adds 20 homes to the game that tthe player can rent from property agents NPC. The scripts involve "honest self-reporting", as you stated.
Azrael released http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=4688 which attempted to make up for the shortcomings of the original scripts, but it seems to have problems of its own (as my PC kept getting overencumbeed by thousand of gold pieces each time he tried to pay his rent. May be a problem with my setting though...).

I would welcome a guild membership fees system.

i haven't used Taddeus's balanced mods in a long while, so maybe I"m missing the point. In the posts about it it seems it brings the armors closer together in AC and such. Doesn't this sort of defeat the point of having armor outside of ascetic purposes? I mean if I can deck myself out in all netch armor early, and the difference between it and more expensive normally "better" armors is pretty slim, why would I bother?


EDIT

Been digging around this morning online looking through different mods. A PTE version of Helluva armor and weapons would be an amazing sight. Really does drive home the problem with having a favored economic balance, you really can't use a lot of mods without messing up the games balance. I used to really like assassins armory, and I still do, but the prices just don't fit in with PTE's world.

Edit again:

http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=2658 a mod to introduce taxes. Haven't used it myself

this taxing mod seems interesting, but i think there should be specific npcs to collect them, not any legionnaire you happen to bump in. and also, why pay the taxes if you don't own anything? it should only be initiated once you get your stronghold. and you should also receive your own tax incomes, since you get to rule a small region (something has been done about this in uvirith's legacy mod for telvanni).

on a side note, would anyone be interested to make a unifying mod for some larger housing mods, that would keep the pricing consistent and easily changeable? i've had bank of vvardenfell installed, and it added a few purchasable homes, the most expensive one being a mushroom manor in sardith mora (replica of SM morag tong guild hall) costing about 80 k. now i'm running Dave's Furniture Store v2.01 and the most expensive "house" it adds is a walled manor somewhere near ebonheart costing 1,2 million septims. also, i'm running a cute little temple subterrain housing mod, and buying one flat in balmora costs only 900 gold. i also have an old mod for a house in balmora that required 1200 septims for a fully furnished modest sized house in manor district of balmora. so you see how this area of game begs for standardisation.

if we could get the house pricing done consistently, we could then start thinking about taxing them. now, i've already said that i have almost no knowledge of modding, but i assume it's basically object-oriented programming. is it possible to add a few variables that will record tax requirements and payments, and if the tax isn't paid to simply redirect the player to an empty cell if he attempts to enter his home? a note would be left attached to the door informing him that all the furniture has been confiscated and warning him not to leave anything in the flat or it will be taken as well (once he pays the taxes, he gets his home back, but anything left in the confiscated version would be unavailable, i assume).

as for the guild dues, is it possible to refuse services? a few variables check if you're paying membership fees, and if you don't, you don't get services, you can't use supply chests, and can't sleep in beds. if my memory of CS help serves me well, all this would be achieved by simply expelling the player from the faction. once you pay your dues, you are reinstated in your previous rank. to be strict and realistic about it, you could get expelled permanently if this happens more than a few times.

Yep, the merging process fails on dealing with infinite stock and the same stock (or stock added) that isn't infinite and can cause game crashes, that's why in PTE you have to delete the NPC entries, or more tediusly, just the entries that PTE changes.


I think the merger causes the trader to have an infinite stock and a finite stock as two seperate entries, which the game engine itself can't cope with.

How about Adventurers 3.0?

I've seen it, but I haven't tried it out. Sounds pretty interesting, though, of course, limited to the homes it adds.




No, not really. They still make a significant difference, but not nearly so much. If you don't compare it to how things were before using TAD balancing, it's just a different number dynamic. After all, why do we not feel cheated that the range isn't 0 to 250? Numbers, numbers. Change the frame of reference, and you see people in some games working hard to eke out a 0.6% difference in this or that. BUT, within the game's overall framework it does indeed free you to stick with lower- to medium-end armor and enchant it without it being nearly so much of a handicap as it would be otherwise. But I'll definitely take AR42 over AR30. Personally, I like that concept, and am ambivalent about how low he brought the top end of the range down (again, conceptually -- maybe it plays great), though, again, I am not qualified to see how it plays in the mid-to-late game. I'm working on that.

One thing for sure, though -- play with TAD balancing and Creatures, MWA and so forth with the difficulty slider moved up at your peril. (I'm trying it with GCD as well.)



Yep. That's where an individual-based project falls short. You need patches, and enthusiastic support and all that. Incidentally, TAD balancing has many patches for other armor/weapon/item mods, but, of course, not newer ones. And HELLUVA? That's, eh, a project for sure. I'm not averse to it, though, if we can get a project together.

At this moment I'm working on a TAD patch for the MPP, Better Clothes and Lurlock's Left Gloves so I can play it without irritating incompatibilities and regressions.



I'll check it out when I get a chance.



I disagree. Taxes tend to be regressive. They do find ways to tax the propertyless. What you say as to who does it, though, makes sense. Maybe there would be several regional census-keepers and administrators, one of whom the player can declare his residence with, and who must be paid dues periodically.

But I think this is a bit advanced and easily-isolable, and would probably be better implemented as a separate individual mod like other similar ones mentioned.



Wow. Now this is starting to scare me. Rent, defaults, evictions, seizure of household property... getting waaay close to reality there. :ph34r:

Some intriguing ideas. In regard to taxes, I'd personally be more partial to a simple bounty applied to the player if she fails to pay taxes. Personally, though, I'd be more interested at this stage in tackling both the gameplay and economy in a consistent manner at the lowest, infrastructural level -- items and more basic economic functions -- first, before going on to that kind of thing.



Hmm... When I try it out, I might experiment with cutting the relevant NPC entries out, and putting them into a forward-dated mod to make sure that they override that kind of thing. Will that work?




How ironic. I just ran across that on my hard drive today and was taking a look at it. Lots of things to look over...

naturally. but this is basically just a brainstorming session. spew forth ideas, choose them by priority, implement, then see if those extra features are doable and/or necessary.

I like modded Morrowind much better, but sadly you have none of my preferenced mods. So I'm outside the bun on this one.

I think we should all work on making the ultimate balancing mod
Sort of like Connary's Compedium but for balancing.

I'd help with collaboration and stuff

Read some of the stuff here. I think i might have a different perspective. IMO 'gold sinks' such as tax, food etc. appear to me to be a completely irrelevant gameplay device i.e. the provision of which does not add to the experience as the real world equivalent appeals to the person intimately. For instance, one cannot simulate the enjoyment nor the necessity of food in a game, and taxes seem to be rather arbitrary since you don't get anything out of it. A game should always be first and foremost have a resource system - you play the game and 'win' and you get something in return. If you pay taxes you ought to be rewarded something such as protection from local guards, access to amenities etc - anyway I digress.

Regarding trade in morrowind: i think it'd be a lot cooler if you made a worthwhile avenue to spend septims. The most obvious thing to spend money on? Gear. Make cooler/more powerful gear appear for trade. Make loot rarer. Players are happy when they get rare loot, or they are able to amass enough money (finally! after clearing tons of ruins and caves and selling stuff off!) to buy awesome, powerful gear. Basically I think it makes more sense to, instead of drastically reducing prices/stats for high end items, provide an incentive to actually use the trade system. Because even if you reduce the cost of everything substantially there still isn't any particular reason to buy anything anyway when i could grab some nasty enchanted dagger from some baddie i just slew. Of course adjusting prices is essential too. Just adding another consideration to look at - well, alot of considerations actually, since this might require altering loot lists and repositioning easy to get uber-loot (or adding tough monsters, locks etc.)

the thing is, you already do get protection from the local guards, although you are in no way a contributing member of society. i mean, you do kill the baddies, as you call them, but all the money you gain goes to you, and you even get some counterfeit goods that you do not surrender to the guards but either stash or sell (skooma and moonshugar anyone?). and also, most of the time you kill a few goodies, honest working people who contribute to the society.



this way of playing requires a perpetuum mobile - it needs a script that will constantly keep creating more and more powerful stuff, because regardles of how rare the loot is, it is still there, and eventually you'll amass enough to demand better equipment. besides, it may be your preference to play the game just so you could create an omnigod of death and destruction (i think i'll instate an official forum abbreviation for this - OGODD), but some people actually value morrowind for the depth of immersion it provides. and these people, methinks, find that these 'gold sinks' such as tax, food etc. that appear to you to be a completely irrelevant gameplay device actually make a world of difference. but hey, that's just my two septims

Which ones, PatchyPegleg? Make me aware of them and I will add them.




Sounds great!




Some good points, mousiehamster. I agree on the leveled lists. The leveled lists must be tamed for a decent game balance that doesn't blow all of its surprises on day 3. However, the degree of change you suggest seems to me probably more fundamental than possible with a rebalance that doesn't become a TC.

As to the rest of what you say, I think you address an important variant perspective on gameplay that seeks a different balance between simulationism/immersion and pure game.

I'll continue below.




Rejndzer87, settle down, tiger! I do not think you meant to, but you come off a little harsh and insulting, and that won't get us very far. He's not denouncing or criticizing the fundamental ideas at hand or the participants in the contribution, but offering a relevant, contributory viewpoint. Please go easier, as, speaking for myself and hopefully others, I value your, his and others' ideas and contributions here.

That said, again, good points the benefit thing. He's addressing it as a raw gameplay mechanic -- you give up this, you should get something for it you didn't have before -- and you're addressing it as an overall realistic balance. Both ideas that show us different facets and how such a gameplay element will impact different players.

And on the perpetuum mobile, I think you're probably right. After all, more "pure" leveling, like that in Oblivion, at least for me, makes power level all the more meaningless. I personally do not like the approach of ever-increasing power levels used in many MMOs. Level 1, 10, 50, 100, 200, with constantly-increasing stats. That is sort of the logical outcome of the perpetual progress approach, as it means both the boat and the water level must rise -- the sea at level 50 looks like the sea at level 10, though the numbers are bigger. I inflict 1,410 damage instead of 15, but the generic thug opponent has 1,850 hit points instead of 20.

I don't think MW can be made to satisfy that sort of "always something better to get" desire -- its basic game element is poorly fitted to it, or at least is geared toward the player achieving it via enchantments, in my opinion. So, while I think reducing leveled list monty-haulism is a very good idea, I don't think the more-ambitious goal you express in that regard, mousiehamster, is achievable within the limits of a mere rebalance. But I could be wrong, and am open to it.

Please, indulge me in a couple paragraphs of theoretics, as I think it may be contribute to understanding (hopefully!).

As I see things (nonconclusive hypothesizing, of course), all games of this sort will occupy some balancing point within a sort of triangle (sort of like, say, a triangular color-picker in a grahics editing program), balancing between those poles: (1) Simulation/Immersion, (2) Pure Game, and (3) Role-Playing. These factors are all compatible with each other, though fundamental increases in one will tend to be at the cost of others. [* See note at bottom.] There are, of course, other factors that contribute to the nature of a game, and I'm not trying to be over-authoritative or exclude other important factors, but, as I see it, this is one dynamic, among others, at the root of them.

Personally, I find that the survival element in NoM, which, after all, was one of the things that made games like Ultima Underworld so intriguing, a great improvement in the feel of MW, and this indicates my tending more toward that simulationist/immersionist pole than what one would call a casual player. (And if you think about it, the actual pure gameplay element of UW was the least compelling of its features. If we judge it purely as "Pure Game" in the sense of (2) above, it would fade into obscurity. It was its particular injection of well-executed immersion and, to a lesser extent, RP elements, along with adequate gameplay, that gave it its broad appeal.)

Now, to use this to reconcile the differing positions: I would not be averse to non-rewarding money sinks like taxes and rent, but those do tend toward a further movement toward the "Simulation/Immersion" pole. And it is relevant to consider how far toward that pole we wish to go, as any project worth undertaking here should have broad enough appeal and support to give it weight and life.

We don't want to debate theoretics or, assuming the validity of my framework, whether we should tend toward this or that element. It is a fundamental assumption of mine, in hoping to get together support on this project, that we work toward something that better balances the game (i.e., the "Pure Game" aspect) and increases the balance and believability of the economy (i.e., a mixture of Pure Game and Simulationism/Immersion). While it is not really the place, given that assumption, to argue that such a project need not be undertaken, it is quite appropriate to argue different relative balances within that general balance and among players who are favorable toward the basic assumptions of this project.

So I'm totally open to discussion of how far we want to go in that direction. What say you, outlanders?


[*] Actually, I would more accurately portray it as a 3-D pyramidal framework, with the fourth pole being a sort of lack of the others. In other words, for the those conversant in basic economics language, a 3-dimensional "production possibilities frontier" where, up to a certain point, all can be increased, but once you get to a certain point, a further increase in one will tend to absorb the resources another needs, therefore decreasing it. I oversimplify above, and I'm getting pedantic here, but I wanted to satisfy both expedience and some petty level of intellectual rigor.

[**] Should I start a poll for how many people want to shoot me for using both "labor theory of value" and "production possibilities frontier" in discussing MW?

On the first point, I was just throwing out a general incentive. BTW I was under the impression that guards don't care if you get attacked unless the attacker is a creature - perhaps i am mistaken; it's been a while. Either way maybe guards could have their behavior modified such that no taxes = capped, very low disposition and taxes = high enough disposition that they'll help you out when attacked.

On the second point: not necessary to create a dynamic script. Just make available a few items across different traders that will take a LONG time to get with money. I don't mean to say there should always be better equipment up ahead because let's face it, there comes a point where the character really is on top of the world. But for a large portion of the game there should be lucrative items/services on offer for which you can spend money on, and i'm not even referring specifically to weapons. As for 'tax' and 'food' i just don't feel that it's consistent with you as an adventurer that goes out killing things. I mean you don't even own a house and food - well that's okay but how much of a gold sink can food realistically be? Anyway i totally respect the idea that some people might want food and tax and shelter for immersion/realism so i'm not specifically against it; i just think food, tax and shelter are basically the bare necessities and cannot amount to that much of a gold sink regardless and fundamentally I think stuff you pay for (in games) should always be a positive thing that adds rather than something that just breaks even i.e. consequence of no taxes - kicked out of town? Pay tax - can stay in town as normal. No food - lowered stats. Eat food - normal stats.

Oops, missed this one before-- I understand. You're right.




Ah, I see what you mean. Perhaps a good position to reserve for custom-modded items, perhaps integrated via balancing patch.




Again, a different envisioning of the nature of the game, more in line with the implementation in the vanilla game (a different balance in the triangle I described). But I agree that it would be a stretch to make necessities an overly-large money-sink, though a mansion and so forth are big. But either way, I think this particular issue highlights the fact that taxes, rents and so forth would be certainly suited for an optional extension, but certainly not an obligatory feature of a major, community-supported rebalancing mod. Fortunately, that's fairly easy to do. So we can certainly do both in a modular way without alienating an otherwise-interested base of players.

However, as for whether there are "necessities" needed at all, I am thinking, and strongly suggest, a minimum assumption of NoM being used. After all, it's widely-used, widely-supported, forms a good basis for economy-balancing, and adds a lot of immersiveness to the game.

thanks for clarifying your position mousiehamster, and sorry if i did indeed sound insulting or overly aggressive.

gluby makes a good point - this kind of project needs as wide a support base as it can get, so modular approach would be the best. i also agree that the basic assumption of Nom usage is the best course of action. the triangle thingy (sorry, i'm to tired to remember correct economy phrases) is a good illustration. i tend to care more for immersion and RP aspects of games than the pure game aspect, but i recognise that plenty of people have quite different gaming preferences - de gustibus non est disputandum. still, mousiehamster also makes a valid point - paying taxes, minding rent, buying food - that's all very immersive and very quality RP, but it's still nice to use the saved up money to buy that ultra cool briastplate you've seen in balmora last time you've visited, and then go out in the wilderness just to test it out and show it off to bandits - before killing them, that is



well, i just can't completely agree with you on this matter. i understand that this is your preference, but i think it veers off too far into the pure game corner of gluby's triangle. this is not how things usually function in reality, and in fact they too often function in the opposite manner. now, i realize that a game is a way to escape from reality for some, and a way to have pure fun with not much cares for others, but with games like MW, that aim to simulate a realistic social structure, that is just not possible. the "escape from reality" part that the idea of necessary necessities offers is that they sometimes pay off, usually break even, but never penalize you.

http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=6693 just throwing this in to the mix. A rebalance of Taddeus's balance, leaning more towards the original values.

In PTE with traders stock I made it so that enchanters had a massive overhall regarding their stock. It's all faction, race & location based/themed. But also the items they offer will normally be available before you can find it as loot.
I think I did the same with some weapons/armour.

So, spend your septims early, or wait a few levels on the chance that you'll find it as loot.



Modular balancing can cause problems. If Module A adds items, while Module B sorts out levelled lists, you'd need another module that sorts out levelled lists that also includes stuff from module A, since an ESP can't reference items in another ESP.
That's why in PTE I merged the old mod into one, it was too much of an headache to keep seperate. Too many "patch" files to cater for different setups, and then if you need to make updates, the same changes may need to be made in different esps.

couldn't we just throw all the necessary resources in a master and then make plugins that take from it only what they need? i've already said i don't know much about modding, but isn't that what NoM basically does?

Got it. It's too late, unfortunately, for people who've already taken the poll, as it seems it does not allow one to change one's votes, but I have added Mega-Morrowind and Number One's rebalancers to it. Apologies for taking a while in getting to it.


I like that a lot.




I think we're addressing two different levels of modularizing. Different choices within one framework, as PL addresses, is a difficult mess and a lot of work. on the other hand, when the functions are distinct and separate, as in the case of a script/dialgoue-based taxing mechanism or something along those lines, it's easy (and almost obligatory) to separate into a separate module.


However, on a different note, one thing I'd also like to bring to the fore is the whole other side of the rebalancing thing: weapons, armor, and other low-level elements that play into the challenge level and the meaningfulness of interaction with enemies and the environment. This is just a hunch, I think that a lot of people have assumed this is just about game economy balance, which is why I think there are a majority of votes indicating that people use rebalancers and have no hassle. As far as my own experience, once you throw armor/weapon/item rebalancing into the mix, the complexity level just goes way up.

I'd like to know about how people have fared with these sort of mods. Taddeus's balancing mods got a lot of support, but I hear little about them now. Is that because he faded from the scene and patches ceased coming out, or because it just made for a poorly-balanced game? I know, looking at it and having played it a bit, there are some redesign choices he made that I find overly coarse in their implementation, and I just plain don't how weapon weights soar in it. (Although if it turned out to be a good basis to continue with among among those interested, I'd swallow my objections and accept it.) My original thoughts on all this started with wanting to take his basic approach, add more granularity and individuality, spread the numbers out a bit more than he did (i.e. more than 20-42 among most armor types), leave room for better enchantability (he really clamps down on enchantability values for most things), keep and build upon the gold values, and toss out the weapons-are-ultra-heavy approach to weights (along with the inconsistencies in his implementation of it).

I'd love to hear about people's thoughts on this stuff, and experience with these sorts of rebalancings, particularly in mid- to late-game, as that's where it will hit hardest for those that, essentially, nerf all equipment to some extent. There are lots of things to approach, but I'll leave it very general.