[Emzy Baby!]

If I remember correctly she also advises Ned to go because Robert might begin to suspect House Stark's loyalty if he refused. It's a sound argument. Basically, Robert forced Ned's hand (hey oh) by travelling in such fanfare up north just to ask Ned to be Hand.

Spoiler

That was such a brutal scene. His whole arc seemed to be building up to a triumphant encounter with the dragons worthy of the songs, then GRRM subverts that whole fairy tale thing so savagely that I was kind of taken aback. Was it just me, or did GRRM ramp the whole fantasy desconstruction thing way up in ADwD? Another scene I remember very vividly is the gladiator fight in one of Dany's chapters where there was a handsome boy with ethereal flowing locks (who'd be the hero in every other story), who immediately died because that hair then got grabbed by his opponent.

[book 5]

[Mackenzie]

At least Robert got his wish,he Drunk and [censored]d himself to death...

[Juliet]

/rofl.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rofl:' /> Aaaah, Victarion "Two gods is betterer than one" Greyjoy. That's a guy who would have beaten Dwight Schrute to inventing http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lr4hswGuW71qm3r06.png.

[Myles]

As goofy as Victarion comes off, I cannot help but believe that he is one of the "three heads of the dragon." There is a fearlessness and determination in him that...

Spoiler

Quentyn lacked when he tried to tame Viserion and Rhaegal. Plus he has the dragon horn now, and I think he could use it to convince Dany that he has mastery of dragons and can stop them from hurting innocents, which became a big part of Dany's inner turmoil in ADWD. If dany has one weakness it is definitely her compassion for people she feels are innocents.

I also dont think he is that stupid, definitely not as smart or cunning as tyrion, but not the stupidest character in the series. He was smart rnough to figure out Euron was poisoning him, and kept Moqorro on board, which I think was a smar t move on his part. The priests of R'hlorr may be disillusioned and fanatical, but damnit if they aren't powrful.


He's like Joffrey minus the aspect of actually having any power.

[Juliet]

See, I never actually HATED Viserys. I hated some of his actions, and his behaviour wasn't much better. However, I'd say his character stems from him basically being a broken man. Like how he says 'The Dragon NEVER begs' types of lines stem from him trying to deny he's a royal who has to beg just to get by. He's proud, but begrudgingly admits pride can't feed him. Then selling his sister, I don't see it as cruelty IE being a slaver, but his doing it was because he saw it as his shining sun through the clouds for his dreams to finally be realised, and the Iron Throne in reach. I felt a mix of disgust at his outward actions, and pity for his true nature, this scared child pretending to be a bold King in exile (He was in a sense, but you get my meaning).

[Marine Arrègle]

My hatred for him mainly stems from the fact that he beat the [censored] out of his little sister and basically treated her as nothing more than property. I have a real life problem with people who completely abuse the trust and love of their own family, so even in fiction people like that deeply affect me. The crown that he got was the one that he deserved.

He was pitiable, but to me he was not a tragic character. He was corrupt to his core, and his reign would have been Aerys the second, third, and fourth. Being broken doesn't excuse what he became. Instead of even trying to see things from another's perspective, he vehemently believed Aerys was a king that was completely just in what he did, and nothing was going to change his views on that.

Also the fact that he basically felt he was entiteld to everything. He believed Danaerys, Drogo's dothrakai, the iron throne, etc, was his to control without actually earning any of it. As boring as Danaerys and her POV chapters are to some people, as least she believes that she needs to earn the respect she's trying to get from people, and that her power isn't supposed to be used to subvert her people, but to actually help them.

[Noraima Vega]

Of course, no one's denying he's a dike. I think he acts entitled because it helps him deny the fact he's little more than a beggar tied to a ruined noble dynasty. There's no excusing his behaviour, no doubt about that, but it's understandable. As boring as Danerys can be, I do like she's a bit more level headed (If not delusional at times) than Viserys.

[Ally Chimienti]

Oh, I have no doubt that part of what he became was because of circumstance, but for me his ends don't justify his means, and it's hard for me to feel anything but anger when I think about his character. In the beginning of danaerys's POV chapters she is afraid of her brother hurting her, not just emotionally, but physically beating her (incurring the wrath of the dragon). Him selling his sister is cruelty, he may not believe it is slavery, but he does believe she nothing more than a tool to increase his power. He uses his "supposed" power as rightful heir to the iron throne to emotionally and physically dominate his younger and impressionable sister. His cruelty to her runs so deep that before she met Drogo, she believed Viserys was right in his actions, that she deserved what Viserys was doing to her. All because for a while Viserys's dominance was the only thing she viewed as right and just. His actions toward her are irredeemable in my eyes.

that's one thing I actually dislike about the show. they didnt convey how terrible Viserys actually is to her.

But I am of the opinion he would not be much different if Aerys had lived and kept the throne. If Rhaegar had still died in battle with Robert, and Viserys inherited the throne I think we'd have just seen a more explosive rebellion against an even more paranoid and corrupt king had viserys succeeded the throne.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that my opinion is correct, and I actually really like your anolysis of his character, I'm just saying that for me, he is my most hated character in the books. Even the Hound has more redeeming qualities for me than Viserys in my view, and the hound killed children, and expressed his own wanting to [censored] a child (not that I believe Viserys would be averse top doing those things, either.)

[Phillip Brunyee]

Thank you, I can understand your anger, I initially saw him as a wretch too. But reading various things brought to mind he was a little older than Dany, meaning he can remember a little more than his sister. This means he knows and remembers Westeros a bit better, making him want for it, and what was, in his mind, stolen from him. I look at him in the same vein as Gollum, a tragic character really.

Speaking of the Targys, I kind of wish Rhaegar had lived and ascended the Throne. He seemed like a good man. /frown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':(' />

[Mark Hepworth]

Heck the only thing Rhaegar was guilty of, IMO, was that he expressed his love to someone other than the person he was already arranged to marry, but even jaime claims that sometimes beauty (in this case love) is not something to lose a kingdom over.

I mean we only get a few glimpses of Rhaegar's character, but from the few bits we get to see of him, he and Dany were the same, except he had a bit more understanding of westeros and it's politics. It's almost as if Robert killed the only character who could have brought peace back to westeros without dragons and extreme politicking.

again, for me, it's just really hard to see past the fact that Viserys beat and emotionally destroyed his sister's sense of self, it becomes difficult for me to see past the causality of his character traits.In dany's first POV chapters I was actuall wondering why he would show a character who was so physically and emotionally broken by circumstances completely out of her own control.

[Ann Church]

Gollum is not inherently mad or evil,it's the ring and his split personality that makes him so....
The Lannisters and Targayryans have a bit in common....
Myrcella=Dany
Joffery=Viserys
Ageon=Tommen

[Crystal Clear]

That's not entirely true. We have no background on Viserys prior to the Rebellion, ergo, we cannot say what he was like. But a lot of his personality stems from the desire to get back to what is 'rightfully' his, Also, to call him Joffrey comparable is laughable. Viserys has anger issues and takes it out on his sister. This is abusive, yes, but he is not a sadist. I'd say Viserys is basically about as dangerous as that shut in who's always threatening to sick his dog on you if you don't get off his yard. You know his dog is a chihuahua but you just go away to shut him up. Viserys is the same way. The only reason he ever took it out on Dany is because she would never stand up to him, but as she became more like the Dothraki, it lessened, to the point she stands up to him. Joffrey however, is a monster. He crossbows animals in the courtyard, disemboweled a pregnant cat, stripped Sansa and had her beat, had Ned Stark beheaded when Cersei and the council advised taking the Black. Plus so much more I'm not able to name off the bat.

Viserys is definitely a pitiful sod of a character, of this one cannot deny, but to say he's a sadistic soul like Joffrey is wrong.

[xxLindsAffec]

I meant the roles they fulfill is similar...not the characters themselves.

[Siidney]

Even still, the role is hardly the same. Viserys is a King in Exile with a self-entitled attitude of confidence because he has to be, he also possesses abusive traits, but only to a mild extent. Joffrey is a sadist who has had virtually no discipline or limits set for him. He's always had what he wanted without question. He's also craven, as he will find any excuse not to be on the forefront of a battle.

Their character is hardly the same,with the exception of their abuses, even then these are leaps in difference.

[Leilene Nessel]

the question is, though, would Viserys be any different if he was in Joffrey's position. If Aerys had lived and Rhaegar still died, or heck even if hey both still died, but Viserys somehow became king anyway, I'm inclined to believe he wouldn't be much different from joffrey.

I forget who said it, I think it was Selmy or Jorah, but there is a saying in Westeros that Greatness and Madness are two sides of the same coin, and whenever a Targaryen is born the gods flip that coin. to me it seems that coin landed on madness for Viserys, regardless of his circumstances.

[Kim Kay]

True, but Viserys comes off to be as the attitude of a posh family in a post apocalypse. Entitled to everything, and gets pissy when he doesn't get his way. His madness while present seemed much more benign compared to the one Joffrey has. Kind of funny. Three Targaryens born to incist, one is mad. Three Lannisters born to incist, one is mad.

Very eerie in many ways.

[Monika Krzyzak]

I think what keeps me so intruiged about this whole story is the fact that we still (end of book 5) have no clear idea of where the story is going to end up, or any idea of what the big events will be that wrap up the story in the end.

[leigh stewart]

That actually worries me a little. Unless all the threads come together in the next book, GRRM will die before the conclusion.

[mishionary]

If that is the case (and I hope that its not), then hopefully what was done with The Wheel of Time series can be done with ASoIaF. But he would need A LOT of notes left behind and some people that were very close to him and know what he wanted to be done with the series.

[Darrell Fawcett]

Yes,That is what I was going for.......
Viserys is like Joffery because he's the mad one of the bunch,but he's a mad Lannister,power hungry,rich and cruel while Viserys would probably have been the same.
Myrcella is like Dany because she is trying in her own small way to right the wrongs her dead brother made and put her family back on top(though she isn't as powerful a character as Dany)
Tommen is like Ageon only in a way that he would have been a better king if he was given a chance.

[Tamika Jett]

I don't know. To be honest, GRR Martin doesn't seem the type to be very meticulous about notes and the like.

[Latino HeaT]

He is still 64 and has no known long term illness......Yes he's a fair bit overweight but that doesn't always mean he'll not live a long life.

[aisha jamil]

The last book is to be called, "A Dream of Spring", if we took that literally, it probably means winter engulfs Westeros in a similar way to the Long Night. If that does happen, it means everything that happens will have been for basically no reason since it all goes to hell anyway. But hey, an apocalyptic event is one way to wrap up the story.


He's only two books to write before the end, and he's 64, I'm not sure how long the other books took to write individually but its definitely very possible he lives past 75, that should be more than enough time.

EDIT; Took two years between, "A Game of Thrones" and "A Clash of Kings". And two years between "A Clash of Kings" and "A Storm of Swords". At that pace, the other two novels will be done in the next 4 years, with "The Winds of Winter" coming out sometime in 2013. However the longest period of time between a novel was 6 years, so if if takes him 6 years for each of the two left, that would mean completion in 2023.

[Anne marie]

I wondered how that came about and what purpose it serves.

I wouldn't say so. As far as I've read he comes close to taming/capturing one but turns his back on the other - and that was his only mistake.

Rhaegar wasn't arranged to marry Elia, he was married to her at the time he ran away with Lyanna.
The quote you refer to from Jaime is wrong, "pretty girl but not a beauty to lose a kingdom for" is used to describe

Spoiler

Robb's action that lead to him losing support and being killed by the Freys

. Rhaegar's actions would likely have went by acceptably if Lyanna had written home and if Robert was disillusioned and thought him and Lyanna would have been a loving couple. I agree with Eddard that Lyanna would have hated and challenged her marriage to Robert.

[Jennie Skeletons]

On Cersei's stupidity, no one can say she's smart when she's responsible for

Spoiler

restoring the Faith Militant, and killing Tyrion's chosen High Septon, and then getting herself imprisoned by him.

Her other various schemes against those she perceives as enemies are also ludicrous.