So the game difficulty on normal struck me as interesting and fair towards being legitimately challenging for new players, until I came across the creature in Caldera that buys everything for maximum price+the stuff assassins drop.

Do you think that gives an unfair edge? I sold their gear like twice or thrice and getting the cube from the dwarven dungeon was not challenging at all whatsoever.

Wondering what others think about this because I'm seriously considering rerolling without the expansions because the gold out of those assassins is just so easy to get it makes the good content of the game kind of trivial in terms of difficulty. They are designed to be on even scales to kill even in level 1. I just can't see the balance on having them exist until 3,000 gold is basically just whatever for the player. Because that's roughly how much gold they give you.

Yes, selling the armor does give you a lot of gold right at the start.
But you chose to keep selling it. You only have yourself to blame
No need to reroll, just drop a bunch of your gold or the assassin armor (or whatever fancy stuff you bought with it) and continue on.

Playing without the expansions is not recommended, since they add new Journal features and fix many bugs. All you have to do is use self-control. Kill the first assassin and then speak with Apelles Matius to prevent anymore of them appearing so you can't farm their armor.

You can also raise the difficulty if things are getting too easy.

What Pluto said. Morrowind is full of things that can easily be exploited by the player and some self control is often needed to keep the game enjoyable.

Or you could try BTB's Game Improvement mod that attempts to close most of the loopholes and make the game much harder than vanilla. I am pretty sure he disables Creeper and Mudcrab as merchants, among other things.

What Pluto and Turija said.

One of the things that separates the Elder Scrolls series from so many other games is, of course, the freedom these games offer. But freedom doesn't just mean roaming the countryside on the back of a horse. Freedom also means the freedom to make mistakes.

We are in control of much of our gaming experience when we play these games. It is up to us to decide what we are comfortable with and what we are not comfortable with. The developers, thankfully, do not hold our hands and prevent us from doing stupid things.

I find that roleplaying eliminates many of these types of problems. My characters do not know the Creeper or the Mudcrab exists, therefore they cannot to trade with them until they learn of their existence. I roleplay that characters may hear rumors about Mudcrab or Creeper if they hang out in Pelagiad or Vivec taverns long enough. If the character is one who is inclined to seek out one of these merchants, they do. If they are not so inclined, they don't.

For future characters (if you're on PC), I really recommend you seek out one of the numerous mods to delay the assassin attacks to a time where it makes more sense and where their power/gear value actually fit gameplay-wise.

But for your current character, I don't think you need to start over. You could donate to your local temple some gold equivalent to what you made thanks to the assassins. Or you could put in a chest all you gained from the attacks, until you're ready to start the Tribunal questline, at which point you reclaim the gear/gold/etc.

This reminds me of how people used to dump overpowered items, or part with artifacts forever - by dropping them in the lava. The items weren't technically destroyed, but picking them up again was near impossible without constant health regen, as the lava is scripted damage and even fire resistance wouldn't help. Honestly, I don't remember if you could even pick up any item through the "layer" of lava.

Am I the only one who sees the issue with having to go out of my way on purpose in order for the game to be a challenge?

Like I said I am a very minimal RP'er, I get in character just playing the game. I don't RP my character to have different knowledge of my own. If I get frustrated about finding something I might just google it. And when I feel like playing as a good/bad character, I do that and change it based on how I feel through out playing the game. I don't look it as poor choice on my end if I rest(resting is a big part of this game) to regain my health in a dungeon I just cleared but get attacked by an assassin, then sell to the NPC that will give me a true friend price. That's Good Choice on my behalf, not messing up... I'm sure you guys can agree.

About ticking up the difficulty, as a fairly new player I don't see the point to that as Elder Scrolls games usually just change the HP and attack of monsters by ticking up the difficulty, no new mechanics introduced or something different to reward the experience. Altho the game is fairly rewarding at the baseline difficulty, it's no Diablo 2 or Path of Exile on hardcoe mode.

The difficulty slider changes damage done and damage received only, not health. But you're right on one point: new mechanics are introduced. This is one area I hope Bethesda improves on in their next game. Their difficulty sliders are pointless.

Figured it's a given that the damage received changes once their attack is raised...

To be completely honest I like beating a good game(I still consider this a very good game) legit and I hate having to go specifically out of my way to do so. I see that as bad game design towards having a challenging game. I understand the fact that I could make it challenging by going out of my way to do the things said here but I think a challenging game should also make sense in the challenge it presents -- like new mechanics in encounters for raising the difficulty. To me it doesn't make sense to have to not make a good choice that lets me progress(and that doesn't bug out or exploit the game-- this is completely by design).

To be fair, the only game in recent memory where "exploiting" the system is sorta necessitated to win is Wasteland 2. Maybe not necessary, but the game is extremely punishing if your squads stats aren't optimized, and you'll probably end up getting wrecked early on in the game without characters of high intelligence, Combat Initiative, and Action Points.

My kinda point is that I never exploited the game. I didn't even know that it will stop once I talk guards or whatever. Granted I hoped assassins would wake me in my rest while resting in dungeons I've cleared myself but I also knew they are pretty weak. All in all rational player choice. This kind of thing is putting me off and this is one of the games I really don't want to be put off from... I might just end up rerolling, with the expansions ticked off the Data Files that launch with the game. I'm not planning on modding the game at least until after I've finished the main storyline quest as my saves couldn't load the last time I applied the Overhaul mod.

It all comes down to the fact that the GotY edition isn't difficult or challenging, unless you make some illogical decision about how you play the game(or unless you RP in a way that compliments having the game more difficult). I'm a good character and I see nothing wrong with selling assassin gear to the good-guy creeper. I actually see the balance in having this NPC exist, which is having it have limited gold. Full value? yeah, but not unlimited wallet.

One of the reasons I tried getting really into this game was the challenge it is supposed to be compared to the newer titles but having to tick off expansions a necessity for this feels like going to play Skyrim on higher difficulties that just make the mobs hit harder and live longer.

I still think it's a wonderful game but man... it really doesn't feel like going on about it legit, even though this is by design. Because this little feature makes so much difference. Meh..

In my opinion, you seem to be going out of your way to make the game easier.

No one forcing you to loot the dead assassin. No one is forcing you to sell the armor to Creeper.

Example... I know this game well so I can go grab the Amulet of Shadows, full Glass Armor and Daedric Weapons before I hit level 3....Very easy to do. No skill is required.
But I don't do that, because it makes the game too easy.

There is no wrong way to play a TES game, but you are the only one who decides your actions.

How do I seem to be going out of my way to make the game easier?

I love loot based games, I kill someone who tries to kill me, I see no reason not to loot him.

Do you not kill bandits in Skyrim that just try to kill you for no reason? Don't you loot their corpses if they have anything valuable?

Like I said I would rest in a dungeon I cleared or in a seemingly hidden place, because my health would need restoring and/or magicka. I didn't just start a character and rest an hour 10 times to farm this stuff. I tried not to do this. Yet about 3 assassins put me more ahead than anything else I did in the game.

The following is only my personal take on the subject:

Well there's the problem. TES games (3-4-5 at least) aren't about the challenge. They weren't built for it. If you want challenge, you'll have to use an alternate playmode like Dead-Is-Dead, house rules, RP limitations or mods. In a way, TES games are like glass tulips. If you try to "beat" them, you're bound to break them.

You know that selling the loot will make you too rich, and you dislike that the gold is coming too easy.... So why not just stop selling the loot?

You could kill 50 assassins and never earn 1 gold piece from them. But you are choosing to sell the loot. See?

Skyrim doesn't have a problem with looting bandits, but you can still abuse and exploit the game to get very rich very quick. Almost every game with an open economy has a way to "get rich quick." It's not unique to MW.


Some history might help you here, because you seem to think the game is broken somehow.... Keep in mind that the gaming market was very different back then, especially for expansions (now commonly called DLCs.)
When Tribunal came out, it was assumed everyone buying it would have already finished the main game, and probably have a character around level 20.
Being attacked right away by the assassin would give these old players two things...
1. Quick and easy access to the new content.
2. A new set of armor that was still viable at level 20+

Most people agree that it was poorly implemented, because when you start a new character it can get unbalanced if you let it. There are many mods that address this though. You can prevent the assassins from appearing until you reach high level, or beat the main quest. Or use a mod that rebalances the price of the armor, or removes Creeper. etc.
Or you know, just choose not to sell the damn armor

Even Bethesda apparently saw this issue, because on the Xbox version (which was released later) the assassins don't appear until you're level 6. (not much of a difference, but still)

Morrowind is also well known for its entire economy to be rather unbalanced. There are many mods that completely overhaul the whole system (including the assassin armor of course) and it seems you would greatly enjoy one of them.

But simply uninstalling the expansions will only fix your assassin problem. It won't remove all of the many other ways you can exploit the economy to get very rich, very quick.
Which is why, ultimately, it all rests on how you play the game.

Leaving the armour on the dudes is another solution. I mean most people in real life wont strip naked every person they murder.

There's no going out of your way to do that.

The 3000 gold from one of these assassins isn't going to get you rich, in any case. You can get that much by trapping the soul of one scamp.

The other thing worthy of note is that the assassin attacks don't go on forever. They will get harder for a while, depending on your level, but then they stop. You just can't exploit them as much as you think you can. You need a lot of gold in this game, for enchantments...unless you exploit something else.

Speak to Apelles Matius in Ebonheart once the first attack occurs. The attacks will then cease. That way, you only get a one-time drop of gear; a 3,000-gold stipend to invest in your future career, if you will.

I'd have to agree that the DB armor was a poor design decision, but it was probably done to allow you to jump straight into the new Tribunal expansion without having to build a new character from the ground up; it gave you a head start to sink into equipment or training, or to use. Looking at it from the perspective of someone who hasn't played the game before, but wants the improvements which come with the exansions, it's not at all balanced.

Your options are:

A - Leave the first assassin there where you found him, after looting his weapon, and talk to a guard, who will direct you to speak with Appelles Matius. After you do so, the attacks will stop, and in 3 days the original assassin's body (and the overpowered armor) will vanish.

B - Loot the body and sell the armor, then stop further attacks by speaking to the officials as above. Put the Septims toward equipment or training, or "donate" them to your preferred religious group or charity.

C - Uncheck the expansion and deal with the orginal clunky journal, and other issues which were patched by the expansions.

D - Powergame by farming DB assassins, until they eventually stop attacking.

My characters generally do either A or B.

Most of mine do B. My characters aren't blind to the fact that the guy's wearing outrageously valuable armor, but they figure that they got lucky surviving the attack. So they involve the "law" as soon as they can, stop the attacks, and sell the armor for a fraction of its worth to merchants like Arrille.

The Mudcrab and Creeper merchants are economy-breakers, and it's a bad idea to use them, in my opinion. If you do so, you'll find little reason to use the other merchants, so roleplay tends to go out the window.

There's no good reason to "find" the Creeper during the early game. Nobody tells you about him, and there's no valid reason to be poking around in that house, unless you have a reason to be dealing with one of the orcs.

The Mudcrab merchant doesn't enter the picture for me at all. I've only had one character, in all these years, who actually went and traded with him.

I don't think it's a bad idea at all. They're a part of the game by design, specifically, and can be discovered through roleplaying easily, too. I see the Creeper and Mudcrab as balanced, and also exploitable. Whether you RP or not. They have from 5 to 10 thousand and if I empty their wallet I'm not going to rest for a month to cash in all the valuable stuff I might be carrying. Just go and do something else if their wallet is empty.

If you join the fighters guild you need to get to Caldera in the 3rd mission.

From a roleplay point of view, RP is playing as a role you've created, and there's nothing wrong with your character checking the houses because they're curious.

You need to be somewhat creative to RP at all and so I think it's fairly easy to come up with reasons to go in that house, or not to go in there.

For example, the "law" in this game's world is pretty screwed up, killing off the entire world but 1 guard will just cost you a fee.

You can be a good character and wander into that house, and not mind to sell the Creeper, because what makes him worse than the law, legalizing Thieves Guild and Assassins Guild(Morag Tong or w/e it's called), or the merchants that sometimes offer you ridi-culous prices, as if you're trying to sell a stolen phone in the black market?

If you're a Dark Elf like me, it's even easier, because most everyone dislikes you from the get go for whatever reason. On the other hand you can be a good character and decide to not do business with a Creeper because you want to help some non daedric businessmen to do their jobs. I'm sure RP'ers have thought of way more than those examples.

Actually once you get a certain bounty (i think around 10,000) guards dont give you the option to pay and will only try to kill you.

Exactly. Some of my characters will discover them and some will not. If they do discover them, some of my characters will feel comfortable trading with them and some will not. It all depends on the character.

The Creeper and Mudcrab are there as "conveniences" for players. They don't make any sense as merchants, because they buy and sell for the same price. They provide the same "benefit" as the museum in Mournhold; they're a place to unload unwanted gear for a maximum return. It's quite true that you can work them into your roleplay, and I've had a few characters who did. What I said above is that, in my opinion, it's a bad idea to use these "merchants," because you can develop a dependency on them, and stop using the regular economy-based merchants.

You were initially asking whether people felt that the combination of the Creeper and the Assassins caused "an unfair edge." I tend to feel that they do, if exploited, and was offering an alternative view on the subject.

If you sell the Assassin junk to Arrille in Seyda Need, you will get at most 800 septims a day. It's a lesser "exploit," and allows the game to retain a bit more challenge. And if you halt the attacks after the first, you've even further "capped" the damage.

Just roleplay whatever way makes the game work best for you.

This is it. You can do or not do. If one finds that "doing" makes the game too easy (as I do), then one has the option of "not doing."

TLDR; Morrowind doesn't have a perma death hardcoe mode for a reason-it doesn't try to challenge the player to push progression. That's not the focus. And in my opinion TES 3-5 are at the same difficulty, altho Morrowind has another layer or 2 of depth.

I never thought those NPCs were unbalanced or breaking the game because their gold does run out and merchants usually offer you really, really scummy prices. It's basically all a black market economy with the exception of 2 good-guys that by chance turn out to be an animal and a deadra(if I got that right).

The Assassins though... yeah.

It's not really one an overall kinda thing, I don't think that all of the easier routes I'm aware of break the game, and I also don't know that many. A mod said something about an amulet of shadows which I hope to not hear more about until I'm in a way way later stage of the game.

I agree that there's no wrong way to play an Elder Scrolls game, though. You can thieve an ebony mine, go to good-guy mudcrab/creeper and come out with more gold than that of the Assassins.

All in all, considering the game and it's mechanics, and the "complexity" of it, compared to Skyrim and some other RPGs(I'm coming from Path of Exile playing hardcoe characters), I don't think Morrowind is a hardcoe game in the same way that hardcoe RPGs are, at least in their gold standard cases(like Path of Exile), which just means it's not a game where you really try to push for progression because of if you slip up you can lose everything. It is a hardcoe RPG in the sense that it has an insane amount of game time, and a level of progression, even if it doesn't require challenging content to achieve. The game is about being open world and interesting, and immersive, not about challenging us.

Some people talk about dice-rolls when the damage is concerned but that exists in a lot of RPGs, you basically have a damage-range, that's all. Granted, there might be more mechanics to some late game bosses but I've come across enough spoilers to know that this is not really the case. It's basically a hack n slash RPG with a fairly complex("rich" would be more accurate, actually) level of spell crafting+enchanting. There's a lot of things you can do with that, but it's not trying to be a challenge.

Why I'm saying this is because some people like talking about how Morrowind is harder than TES 4-5 and I don't think that's true. Yes, there is less hand-holding which I like, it's a lot more immersive. I don't consider myself an RP but I do make the most(minimal) effort in this game compared to any other to kind of reason certain choices like how resting is specifically not called sleeping, which makes sense to rest in questionable areas to recover some hp/magicka.

I do think that Morrowind is the most gear based game of them all, because of no level scaling and so on. The loot system is actually quite interesting when you factor in enchantments, I can't really compare it to PoE or Diablo 2 but it'd be interesting to see a meld of the two along with the enchanting.

I also think Morrowind is the deeper game, obviously. But when you have NPCs around that buy your stuff for a ton more, and you can just choose to take some items to get a ton more, the logic of a challenge just goes out the window for someone like me. I won't make myself slip on purpose in order for the game to be difficult, that just doesn't make sense to me. This way, surely almost every game in the world is potentially a difficult, challenging game... even ticking the max difficulty on TES 3-5.

I did end up rerolling with the expansions unticked, at least until I get through with the main quest, whenever that might be. Or maybe when I'm at a point when I feel like 3,000 gold is like whatever, I wasn't really far into the game. Did minimal side quest stuff and got the cube from the ruins for Caius. Doing more side stuff this time around after he told me to get better gear and level up. Partially because I've heard the story is like 30 hours long and I'll be bored just focusing 100% on it all the time.