Gender Recognition : V - Skyrim

» Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:48 am

Try addressing girls as 'sir' on the streets of Britain. You'll be slapped. I'll slap you.

Let me open my dictionary:

sir Noun /s?r/
1. Used as a polite or respectful way of addressing a man, esp. one in a position of authority
excuse me, sir
2. Used to address a man at the beginning of a formal or business letter
Dear sir

Morrowind/Tamriel/Elder Scrolls isn't earth. The terms of polite respect don't seem to be gender specific.

sera - (n.) a term of respect. Sera Fyr. [Dunmeri]
Source: TES3:Morrowind

serjo - (n.) a term of high respect. Serjo Fyr. [Dunmeri]
Source: TES3:Morrowind, Horror of the Castle of Xyr, Poison Song

» Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:19 pm

Just because they also refer to women as madam does not mean that Sir is not used for both genders.

In modern America, there is Ms. Miss, and Mrs. for women, and just Mr. for men. That could apply to TES too, one gender having more possible titles for their gender. And Sir IS a title for a fighter, not a man. America just decided it was for men. So a women who doesn't fight could be Madam, but one who does is Sir.

In Morrowind, NPCs addressed females as madam.

Don't try and give them an excuse to leave something as quaint as this out? What's your problem with people being addressed properly?

» Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:53 am

It was generally used to refer to honorary knights who served under Lords in feudal times.

Since men were the only fighters in medieval Europe, they were the only ones referred to as Sir. But if a woman could become a knight, they would have been referred to as Sir. But considering that America butchered the English language, it is now for referring to any man.

I thought you'd call female knight a dame, but what do I know I'm just a dumb American butchering the English Language :rolleyes:

» Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:08 am

Yes!
And in Fallout they kept calling me 'mate', 'brother', 'dude', 'man', and I was like, ehhhhhh you need your eyes checked :shakehead:

Plus the dialogue that they wrote was tailored for a male PC... disappointing.
I suppose someone will pop in and say "JUST BE HAPPY YOU CAN PLAY A GIRL AT ALL".

More gender-specific things is good. They should 'discriminate' for the sake of giving everyone the right and proper experience. And if they won't do this, they should at least make everything androgynous instead of presuming you're a male (which is the real discrimination :cry:

).

Mate is unisix. My grandfather says " 'ere you are mate" when he gives a cup of tea to my grandmother. It's the same as saying 'friend' or 'chum' or 'buddy'.

» Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:00 am

Morrowind/Tamriel/Elder Scrolls isn't earth. The terms of polite respect don't seem to be gender specific.

sera - (n.) a term of respect. Sera Fyr. [Dunmeri]
Source: TES3:Morrowind

serjo - (n.) a term of high respect. Serjo Fyr. [Dunmeri]
Source: TES3:Morrowind, Horror of the Castle of Xyr, Poison Song

And in common dialogue, greetings, books... madam is also used.

Find me a book where the woman is addressed as 'Sir'.

» Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:04 am

I thought you'd call female knight a dame, but what do I know I'm just a dumb American butchering the English Language :rolleyes:

I'm American too.

And I butcher it as much as anybody, but I know I do it and admit I do it.

Edit: Either way, I think Bethesda probably fixed it.

Personally, I also hope they fixed the mutating beggar voices.

» Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:57 am

Does all this argument of if "sir" is a more male honorific, or neutral, really matter? Unless some of you are saying that Oblivion had enough gender specific characteristics by one phrase in the OP, then why care? It isn't the real world, true, but I think Bethesda tries very hard for it to strikingly resemble it in many aspects.

» Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:14 am

No need to get into a language dispute. I think this is a good topic to draw attention to, and I'd hate to see it locked. And anyway, it isn't just about being called "Sir".

It was also the fact that we missed out on an entire (albeit, small) questline in Morrowind.

And just acknowledging that, as much as I am obviously a huge supporter and they do very little wrong in my eyes, Bethesda seems just a little behind when it comes to considering female characters.

» Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:21 pm

It definitely seems like Sir was referring to caste/status as opposed to gender. After all, why have some recognise you as a woman while others don't, or have NPCs recognise you based on race?

Does anyone remember if NPCs started referring to the PC as Sir after Kvaatch? Maybe that has something to do with it, or maybe something to do with the Blades.

» Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:19 pm

You can romance and marry male (or female) NPCs in the game.

So a furry stalker is better than a creepy bandit?

And 'sir' tend to be pretty gender-neutral.

That's two guys who saw girls posting in a video game forum and turned into blithering incoherent jerk-offs. :facepalm:

OT: I had no idea it was like that in Oblivion. You would think that a play tester would notice something like that before launch...

I think it's completely reasonable to expect such basic accommodations.

» Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:08 pm

im just throwing this out there as a suggestion maybe your characters are so ugly they recognize them as guys. just a suggestion dont hate me please lol

» Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:54 am

If you want to insist that sir is only a term of respect, then I will accept that.

Let us hope there are no blatant errors in the dialogue where you are addressed as a man (other than sir of course!). Unless we are also going to start excusing terms such as 'brother' when the Dark Brotherhood discriminates between 'brother' and 'sister' both in dialogue and in the five tenants.

Or are we going to say it's okay for parents to say "Hello, son" "You're such a spirited boy" to their daughters... even though that would be funny to hear

» Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:30 am

I'm American too.

And I butcher it as much as anybody, but I know I do it and admit I do it.

Edit: Either way, I think Bethesda probably fixed it.

Personally, I also hope they fixed the mutating beggar voices.

Ok sorry I lied, I'm not American haha. But I speak English in the American accent! :wink_smile:
but yea I hope they fix the beggars voices too, it was like they were bipolar or something
p.s. ooooh I think you thought that I was being sarcastic, I wasn't...so yea

» Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:02 pm

Mazoga the Orc was female wasn't she, and she wants to be called Sir IIRC - not because she wants to be a man, but because she wants to be a Knight.

» Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:51 am

Mazoga the Orc was female wasn't she, and she wants to be called Sir IIRC - not because she wants to be a man, but because she wants to be a Knight.

Was about to say this.

» Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:23 am

It definitely seems like Sir was referring to caste/status as opposed to gender. After all, why have some recognise you as a woman while others don't, or have NPCs recognise you based on race?

Does anyone remember if NPCs started referring to the PC as Sir after Kvaatch? Maybe that has something to do with it, or maybe something to do with the Blades.

Blades were grand, your title was 'Knight Sister'. As it should be.

Pretty sure it was just "it's you, the hero of Kvatch", and nothing further.

» Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:51 am

Was about to say this.

Yeah okay guys. I've moved on from sir.

Now what have you got say about my other post...

» Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:26 pm

"Look at the muscles on you."

"Damn gurl, you got a phat booty!" <- cleaned up a little cause of the auto censor...

And I'm all for gender recognition.

» Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:28 am

Yeah okay guys. I've moved on from sir.

Now what have you got say about my other post...

Holy passive aggressiveness, Batman!

» Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:12 pm

Try addressing girls as 'sir' on the streets of Britain. You'll be slapped. I'll slap you.

Let me open my dictionary:

sir Noun /s?r/
1. Used as a polite or respectful way of addressing a man, esp. one in a position of authority
excuse me, sir
2. Used to address a man at the beginning of a formal or business letter
Dear sir

Some British women on some streets will slap you for saying hi. I doubt they know what sir means anyway.

Just my thoughts Sir.

» Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:07 am

Some British women on some streets will slap you for saying hi. I doubt they know what sir means anyway.

Just my thoughts Sir.

:nope:

The world's turned upside down.

» Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:25 pm

Some British women on some streets will slap you for saying hi. I doubt they know what sir means anyway.

Just my thoughts Sir.

Looks like I'll be staying away from Britain.. :wink:

» Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:29 pm

Yeah okay guys. I've moved on from sir.

Now what have you got say about my other post...

I'm not a guy.

I think they've learnt that there needs to be consistency in the dialogue - it was really jarring that an NPC could go from happy/angry/drunk to a flat neutral tone in seconds.
I'd also like there to be more gender and race specific dialogue.

» Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:39 am

Some British women on some streets will slap you for saying hi. I doubt they know what sir means anyway.

Just my thoughts Sir.

Maybe you shouldn't stare at their [censored] while saying it.

» Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:18 am

Some British women on some streets will slap you for saying hi. I doubt they know what sir means anyway.

Just my thoughts Sir.

lol what's going on with British women and slapping? I wasn't aware they were this slap happy