In the context of Skyrim, I play it for the polt and character development.

To put it simply i won't buy another TES if they don't put more time into character depth backstory and interaction Skyrim should be better in this area. Yes i'm a player of BioWare games and why not they make great games with very well written storylines.

Kind Regards

I really wish that the industry (Namely Bethesda) would stop creating fantastic games that I love in all ways... Until their plot steels my character away from me! Maybe the development team needs to actually sit down together and play some table top RPG's. You know? Have some idea about what the purpose, and more importantly, the fun of (and frustration of) the RPG is.

I'm not some total munchkin lamenting the downfall of table top. I honestly mean it. Do they even know (or try to know) why we like RPG's? From titles like Skyrim, it would seem like they don't... So here is the answer. It's Freedom. Personal freedom and self accountability in a fun, interesting and low consequence environment. It's so obvious. That's why it's called fantasy. The point of playing RPG's is to make decisions. Not to watch some brilliant plot unfold. I have Chris Nolan for that. It's to exercise perfect control over one thing... your character (sheet). I'm not talking about nerfing one class or buffing another. I'm talking about PLOT V.S. CHARACTER. The "storyteller" creates and controls everything in the world (table top or console). The premise is that the player characters can interact with and manipulate cretin parts of that world... But we all know that that is an illusion. You find the clue when and where the "storyteller" wanted you to find it etc, etc... In actuality, ultimately the "storyteller" controls every outcome in the game world, he just lets the player characters think and feel like it was due to them.

So if we know it's a lie than why do we like to play? Because the characters and more importantly the "storyteller", have an unspoken agreement... (The one Bethesda and others love to break) That rule is that the player characters control themselves (i.e. their character sheet). The story teller can't just turn your 8th level fighter into a 12th level wizard. It is the one realm, the single, solitary spec of control that the player characters have. And that is why we like to play these games. An amateur (or just plain bad) "storyteller" manipulates his players character sheets (not their emotions or perceptions) to arrive at the desired plot outcome. Presumably to execute and realize his creative vision (at the expense of the players enjoyment). The number one way (table top or otherwise) that good RPG's go bad is because "storytellers" make the conscious decision to turn their players characters into plot devices.

Please stop. I pay good money for these games and all I want is for my character (and his emotions, opinions, skills and abilities) to be under my control. We can't rewrite the code and change your world. So please, Just leave our characters alone. Don't force the character that you told me I controlled, you asked me to make in the beginning of the game... Don't force him to have spells or a voice in his head or turn into another class or any of your other contrivances. You worry about the world and let us worry about our characters.

Skyrim isn't Lonesome Road though. The problem with Skyrim is there's literally NO choice at all. Every quest is solved the exact same way, and the few that aren't all have "pseudo-choices" where your decision you make makes absolutely 0% different in how the quest is completed.

All the questions heavily depend on what RPG it is.

The only way I can respond to this properly is by providing a spoiler for the Companions. I think it explains my and OP's frustration quite well though.

I really wish that the industry (Namely Bethesda) would stop creating fantastic games that I love in all ways... Until their plot steels my character away from me! Maybe the development team needs to actually sit down together and play some table top RPG's. You know? Have some idea about what the purpose, and more importantly, the fun of (and frustration of) the RPG is.

I'm not some total munchkin lamenting the downfall of table top. I honestly mean it. Do they even know (or try to know) why we like RPG's? From titles like Skyrim, it would seem like they don't... So here is the answer. It's Freedom. Personal freedom and self accountability in a fun, interesting and low consequence environment. It's so obvious.

That's why it's called fantasy. The point of playing RPG's is to make decisions. Not to watch some brilliant plot unfold.

Seriously? You are complaining that this game does not give you enough choice? Just because there are hundreds of quests presented does not mean that you need to participate in every single one of them. By skipping out on a quest to steal a statue for someone, you are not going to be missing out on a quest, since there are still some hundred and 99 other quests out there. And this game has more choice than any other TES game to date.



If you want an RP that lacks complete plot control, which is exactly what you are coming across as saying, go play Second Life. This is an RPG designed to tell a magnificient story, Bethesda has never said that there will be no plot control or devices. you can wander around the world for an eternity if you so desire, without making any meaningful choices or plot decisions. You make every single choice, and some of the choices that you make are determined by whether or not you decide to continue down a certain path. There was another thread where some guy was complaining about the lack of options in the Dark Brotherhood quest line, in the beginning. simply put, he had the option of continuing with the quest and joining them, or just ignoring it and walking the other way. He was making a conscious decision to develop his own character, the game was not telling him that he has to do this, just that he can.




Yes, you are forced into something temporary as a plot device, but by participating in the quest you are participating in the plot device, so you can't complain. It was your choice to go there.

Yeah, no one in the industry really cares about this stuff anymore. It's all been discarded in the name of accessibility. I mean, I was just reading a thread where people were having panic attacks every time a quest offered an alternative option. So they'd reload just to see what the other thing was and if they were going to get a better reward. Can you imagine what a game packed full of meaningful choices would do to them?

Yeah, no one in the industry really cares about this stuff anymore. It's all been discarded in the name of accessibility. I mean, I was just reading a thread where people were having panic attacks every time a quest offered an alternative option. So they'd reload just to see what the other thing was and if they were going to get a better reward. Can you imagine what a game packed full of meaningful choices would do to them?

Why does the OP present his personal opinion of table top as if it's a fact? What makes it more annoying is he literally implies the makers of these video game RPGs must not have played them as they don't agree with him. He could have actually started an interesting discussion, but instead his lack of critical thinking has turned this into nothing but an arrogant rant. Yes, people with creative friends with talent actually do play table top RPGs to experience a good story, one they have personal freedom in effecting. If your DM just let you do whatever you wanted, you had a bad DM, or you are a bad DM.

As an old gamesmaster from the time of the birth of tabletop RPG's (Yes, I have original copies of D&D and Aftermath, as well as numerous others), I doubt that we will see truly interactive and responsive choices for a long time yet.

As a GM, I could either steer players down a path I had created for them, or respond in an appropriate manner, or if they were deserving, cause some long-lasting but temporary harm for annoying 'god'.

Very hard to do that in a video game with a reasonable price and doesn't need 1TB of hard disc space.

I know what you mean....is it even logical to play as anything but a Nord!?

I'm not arguing for more meaningful choices. I don't expect them to be able to make a game that has tons of plot options and different outcomes. If we both play the same game to the end we should both have gotten (a version) of the same plot. The plot is pre-written. It can only be one thing.

New Vegas is easily one of the best RPG's of the decade IMO.

The GM or DM did a lot more than simply present players options. He or she was the narrator and guide through the game, but had to remain flexible as well.