It's a matter of perspective. In time I developed a sense where it is not Steam attached to the game but game is attached to Steam. I think it has to do with the service being improved greatly in last year and a half(offline mode fix especially) and growing of my library.

Around 1, annoying Steam.
5 games, meh.
10, starts to care about it.
20, starts to like the service.
Then it jumps to 200 games: main PC gaming platform.

PS. I plan to move digital all together, I won't include a DVD drive in my next build. Thursday, I went to find a retail copy of PREY because the http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Prey-Pc-Game-Steam-Digital,9334.html. I found the last copy and with the key I registered it to my Steam library. Now I can have it anywhere and anytime I want. :wink_smile:

Gah!!!! Im sorry about this I dont usually do this on internet forums but im going to go off in a rant here. Anyone and I mean anyone who says they've never had any problems with GFWL and would rather it than steam is lying thats just the way it is! No game on GFWL can be played offline, I know this because I bought Red Faction Guerilla, Dawn of War 2 and Fallout 3 all of which required GFWL. For RFG the game wouldnt let me start without creating a profile, so I do that, then im forced to the windows website to confirm that I created a profile, try to go back into the game and I ghet message saying "Games for windows live has encountered an error and must shut down" causing my game to crash. Right so I restart again and im told that GFWL must update, now on steam if it needs to update it downloads all the updates at once, installs and your done, with RFG I had to download, install and restart the game FIVE times to get the bloody thing up to date, and then it told that I needed to download updates for RFG, on steam it would be done automatically for me and all updates would be downloaded, not so on RFG, I again had to download, install and restart RFG another three times. Then when trying to play the game I was told to I had to sign into my profile on GFWL account, okay fine but then I tried to boot up GFWL when I was at my parents house without any internet and I had to go into offline and oh of course all my progress in the game was deleted!
In Dawn of war 2 again I had to do the whole update GFWL thing and then of course sign into GFWL and of course if I sign in online then all my progress there is lost when I go offline.
For Fallout 3 when I tried to buy the broken steel DLC I had to go through the obnoxious fisher price lagfest that is the the marketplace and of course had to buy bloody MS points rather than actually use money to buy it. And then when I buy it im told by GFWL that its going to start downloading the DLC, now im on a pretty quick internet connection so the dlc downloads fast enough until it gets to the 99% point and then the whole thing freezes, I leave my computer for an hour and its still stuck there, I did this three more times and literally nothing! To this day that dlc has never downloaded for me, I had to buy the dlc on disc to actually get it.
To suggest that GFWL could even compare to steam in convenience ease of use or functionality is laughable. Steam is relatively quick, the story is easy to use with some legendary sales, and it is far more convenient not requiring to go rooting around for discs and then download and install patches every time I want to play a game. And FYI the system resource usage is nowhere near as bad as people are making out, right now according to system manager and Gamebooster steam is only using 10.57mb out 4gb! Not really a lot and yes you can play games offline on steam!!!!!!!!!

So you're saying everyone who have said they haven't had problems with GFWL is lying just because YOU had problems with it?

In that case, I claim that everyone saying they haven't had problems with Steam is lying, because I once had problems with it!
Way to look at the world, man...

Well its more like I dont believe the people who say you dont need to run GFWL with games that it comes with and that you can play offline just fine which I have found to be patently untrue, I have not found a way to play a game without GFWL (except for Fallout 3 but thats because FOSE disables it) and playing offline really doesnt work since it doesnt take into account all the progress you've made when playing in online mode, admittedly though I can admit I was probably being a bit hyperbolic

You are going to be in for a massive amount of disappointment some day, and probably sooner than you may be prepared for. Don't EVER get banned from Steam because you'll end up like two of my friends who got banned due to idiocy from the online purchasing. Banned, and now unable to play any of their Steam infected games. At least legally anyway.



Simply put, you're wrong. As I've said before, I have no GFWL account to log into, therefore all games associated with it are by default being played in offline mode.

In my next "Puter I may even try to get a Blu-ray drive (like watching movies on my rig) & also I still enjoy games that aren't on Steam)

Which is what many of us say, when the question isn't limited to "Which do you want, Steam or G4WL?"


I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'd rather have a disk check - or heck, even a code wheel or a "find word x, page y in the manual" - than have repetitive online DRM for a non-online, single-player, installed-from-a-disk game.


Yes, some form of DRM is needed (stupid lazy people have proven this on DRM-free releases). But simple DRM works fine..... nothing will stop a professional, so the only thing draconian DRM does is cause grief to real users. And reassure the stockholders & Wall Street (i.e, people who don't have a clue).



But, as one of the other posters pointed out, the real reason to tie games irrevocably to online authentication is probably to stop used game sales.

Harbinger of bad news much? I wish future brings all the good things for you and your loved ones, Arthmoor. :icecream: I hope your friends don't quit. Just look at the recent EA DLC ban issue.

Valve banning me, I wish. I totally drooled over new packs last sale but couldn't buy them since I had most of the games already.. Getting back my game library may cost less since packs now includes new $50 games, I would buy the packs for similar(even less) prices during sales and get whole archive back as a bonus. It is totally ridiculous. :rofl:


I know I can play in offline mode but I am not sure about bypassing GFWL completely(I will check if I can bypass it for GTA4.). Weird thing about its updates, it updates inside game, outside of game, needs restart of computer and then one or two more updates to finish its process. I'm OK with it though, updates are always welcome.

Real issue with GFWL, let me say this: Microsoft was my hope for PC gaming. But things changed.

FASA Studio(MechWarrior)
ACES Game Studio(Flight Sim)
Ensemble Studios(Age of Empires)

closed.

Halo 2 PC fiasco.

ALAN WAKE!!!!! PC version canceled.

Gears of War 2
Halo 3+
countless other exclusives. Midtown Madness franchise, I love it, one of the best games ever. Where is it now? Oh, XBOX 360 exclusive.

Currently their target is mobile gaming, they abandoned PC gaming for years now. I hope a comeback though, Flight, MW reboot, AoEonline... A little too late but still good news. We'll see. If we were getting silver and gold accounts, $50 memberships maybe they would increase the quality of their service.

:cryvaultboy:


If I get a Blu-ray drive, I might go all the way and get a PS3 instead since Steam is coming to PS3 anyway. :hubbahubba:

PS. I support Steam as a DD service because it is greatly beneficial for me. That doesn't mean I want games to be exclusive on it, I want all games to be optionally available on Steam instead.

PPS. I also indirectly advocate Steamworks DRM because it is how I see the way to get rid of ridiculous DRM schemes but again, I am not strict about it. If an optional Steam version is not going to use any third-party DRM then I am all OK. If not this is The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, I would even get it from GFWL with tages, securom, it doesn't matter.. :tes:

Microsoft made all of those things Xbox exclusive to encourage more sale of their console. Microsoft likes console because they have a monopoly there, or is it oligopoly when it is only a few companies who control the market? I forget the terminology. Why should they make games for the PC when they can force people to purchase it on a platform that they have COMPLETE control over. They do not have to worry about competition with other games because they can dictate who can produce what, when, where, and how.

Basically like I said before, Microsoft will continue abandoning the PC market because they can make more profit being a monopoly with consoles.

Here is what amazes me. Everyone is still conned into thinking Steam or GFWL have anything to do with stopping piracy. Casual "here, borrow my DVD" piracy maybe, but not the kind we all think of. It never was intended to stop those guys.

So, all of this mess is purely reserved for paying customers. While the pirates are busy actually playing their copies of the game, the legitimate players are busy downloading updates, creating accounts, and doing Internet activations. Then, when the game company decides to cut off the activation servers, or gets sold and the purchaser shuts them down, the pirates will STILL be playing, while the paying customer will not.

Of course, the pirates aren't the real target. Resale buyers are the targets. With online activation, resale is dead. Gone are the days when you could subsidize your next game by selling your current game, or get a used game at a good discount. THAT was what motivated all this, not the pirates. They want all paying customers to pay them, not you, your friend, or Gamestop. If they were honest, they would admit that most of this DRM is absolutely aimed at Gamestop and their ilk.

However, beyond that (and I can see how so many buy the bull), I am truly amazed at the number of people who think this is a good deal. Publishers are punishing you for being honest and buying your copy. It's as if we are all living with some kind of crazy Stockholm syndrome or something. Believe me, you may love these guys now, but wait until you get burned - and it's when, not if. Then, lets see how popular Steam and GFWL are. Read up on stories of people who got banned, and now can't even access single player games. (specifically, EA)

Note, I'm not advocating piracy at all. I believe that we should all pay for the games we enjoy, if for any other reason than to ensure more games we enjoy. I'm just tired of being on the short end of the stick as thanks for my honesty. I've missed out on a lot of games because I refuse to budge, and I refuse to be a pirate, and at some point, I'll probably just quit buying games altogether, and entertain myself some other way - but I keep holding out hope that some sane developers will tone it down to the point where I can occasionally indulge in gaming from time to time.

neither
/thread

In fairness, Microsoft does NOT have a monopoly on console gaming. They do control the xbox and xbox 360 - however, their control of the console gaming market isn't near what their control of the Windows market is. (where they actually DO have a monopoly) Consoles are a growth area, but believe me, Windows is still their bread and butter.

There is a reason Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo still have to pay developers for doing exclusives on their platforms.

If there will be a DRM then I agree go with Steam for sure. It's really not obtrusive since almost any serious PC gamer is already using to play games like TF2 or hell Fallout NV. GFWL was just a failed attempt by Microsoft to bring their silly X-Box live system to the PC an charge people for online play here too. It didn't work an so Microsoft pretty much abandoned all support for GFWL. That's why it so crappy compared to Steam. If you saw that leaked internal video as well it shows that Microsofts vision for the future of the service is pretty much like a casual games app store or something. Focusing on selling Avatar clothes an stupid crap like that. I'm not saying Steam is god but between the two of them its pretty clear which one understands the PC gamer better.

Steam for me.

Been using steam since 2005, i have never had any trouble with it to be honest it loads up very quick (i save my login details)

Games are all kept in one place.

Easy to chat with friends via mic or chat.

If i lose/damage my CD i can simply download the game from steam.

Auto-patches never having to search and download the latest patch.

FANTASTIC sales on steam during Christmas period. I normally buy most of my games retail and just register them to steam but i cannot resist some of the great deals steam offers.

While i do not dislike GFWL, i don't really like it either i am indifferent towards it... but steam i just feel offers a lot of decent features and is beneficial for me overall.

Fixed that for ya.

Steam (the client) could be avoided if a Steam shell is built into the game itself much like GFWL. In all fairness, the concept behind GFWL isn't that bad, but the flaws it carries are enough to make me despise it. With a Steam shell, you can save the same user credentials offline, which handles the DRM aspect of Steam, and then just require a disk check. The problem is that this eliminates one of the features of Steamworks, where you can push updates to games at any time, enabling developers to release bug fixes to everyone as soon as they become available.

In addition, the Steamworks concept allows Steam users to download their games on any platform without paying for it. For now, this is limited to only PC and OSX which share games in common. Steamworks will soon hit PS3, which means if you buy Skyrim for PC, you can get it for PS3 for free as well. Microsoft is against this on the Xbox platform, partially because Microsoft loves to be the middle party when it comes to pushing updates (while Steamworks has no middle party) and partially because it wishes to deny Steam at any angle it can because Steam is a direct competitor of Microsoft's own GFWL digital distribution service.

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Jenifur Charne

Only a harbinger of the facts, sir

They got banned, Valve dropped the hammer, not much else need be said. If you think though that having 200+ games on there will protect you, think again. Valve won't hesitate to drop the hammer if they think you've tried to cheat them - which is only one online purchase snafu away.

My friends didn't quit either. Valve probably has them on an enemies for life list after the resolution they both got from their banks for what the BANKS called fraud on the part of Valve. I dare say, Valve is lucky they haven't been sued yet over stuff like this.

As for all that GFWL stuff you're talking about, never once have I seen it do any of that in the whole time its client has been on my PC except for when I had to update it because of some obscure 64 bit thing in one of the DLLs for Fallout 3. I have yet to ever need to register an account with them for any purpose.

I was pissed off when it turned out I had to get steam for a something I physically bought. (Fallout NV) But I hate microsoft even more. It's this really blatant DRM that makes people pirate these games, I've already pre-ordered though, so once again I'll get over my bitter corporate hatreds. Still, I'm not giving Microsoft a cent. So if their DLCs are acquired through windows, forget it, I'll go without.

My question is this... Why the hell would I have to install Steam just so I can play a game that only has a single player mode and that I had bought a physical copy of? Whats the point in forcing me to install some stupid thing just so I can play the damn game? I can understand for some people that "bought" digital from steam. But why should I be forced to play it on Steam? If you say "because patches will be easy hepa derp" thats not a reason thats an excuse to force me to have Steam. If you say because of the cool little acheivments you can unlock. well.. you are a 12 year old kid that has ADD if he needs those kinds of things to keep them playing. Steam will only make it harder to mod the game. Steam will waste my bandwidth. Steam will annoy the hell out of me when when I start up the game and it pops up to tell me "press [censored] and blah to show steam window derp" I can see Steam for multiplayer games but come on why the hell do I need it for a single player game? Also why am I forced to install it in the firstplace when I may not even play that game online? Its like Gamespy 2.0.

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Jenifur Charne

Over 3 weeks now an I still cannot play my fallout Vegas, Steam tec support and and the Dev for fallout Vegas tec support are now pointing fingers at each other telling me the other guy is the one I need to talk to.

That is what happens when you involve a 3rd party between you and the developer of the software you want to use.

This will all go away once a congressman's son has to go thru the same bull crap. But for now I just "donated" $50 to the company that made Fallout Vegas.

Ah [censored], sorry to hear that, man. Personally though, Steam has worked like a charm; bought a handful of games via steam in the past 6 months without any hiccups whatsoever.

I'm quite against online activations. I think it's very silly that if you buy a retail copy of a single player game, you're still forced to activate it online to play it. However, it is possible to play some GFWL games without ever activating them or go online, like Fallout 3, so I guess I prefer GWFL over Steam, even if I would prefer to not deal with any of them.

I don't go that far, but for games I'm interested in that do require Steam, I've always waited until they cost $5 or so. I'm currently waiting for Civilization V to become cheap, and will do the same with DXHR.

deleted. off topic.

Jenifur Charne