Fair enough. Although I wonder how you would define it.


On to the topic again:

Perhaps Morrowind could benefit from a simple stat points system on level-up (e.g. you get a standard xx points to divide over your skills.)

Like Deus and Fallout 3. Pretty good system imvho /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

That would be a great idea! I always liked Fallout's system better.

I've switched to GCD a long time ago and I must say I really prefer it over the vanilla system. Since it does all levelling stuff automatically, one can concentrate on simply playing the game. Worrying about modifiers and level-ups was somewhat of an immersion breaker for me. My perfectionism pitied the lost points and my immersion suffered because of the metagaming choices. GCD provided an acceptable compromise, at least for me. Granted, it is not perfect and can be exploited, too. But if you want to powerlevel you can exploit just about any system. After I switched to GCD I was never tempted to powerlevel my char.

To elaborate on my "over emphasizing roll playing" statement, and still stay on topic, let me first attempt to describe what makes an RPG an RPG.
To describe an RPG as a game in which the player assumes the role of his character is, to me, too simple and inadequate. I think you have to at least mention some of the important aspects of the game, such as:
In an rpg the success of a character is primarily dependent on its stats*, equipment, and dice rolls (with the modifier "while roll playing")

* Stats being defined as "statistical character development" which certainly includes leveling up.

Leveling mods used because "I don't want to worry about stats and/or leveling up because it breaks my role play immersion" just makes no sense to me. I feel that these mods essentially trash 25% of the game (thus over emphasizing role play). I think it would be just as logical to turn things around and say something like "Morrowind would be a really great game if I didn't have to worry so much about roll playing."

Disclaimer: Obviously this is mere opinion and should not be taken as an argument against leveling mods. Morrowind is, after all, a single player game played for enjoyment and I'm not going to argue against anything that lessens that enjoyment.

Above I posted:

Madd leveler was my favorite for a few years but it has some problems with the latest CodePatch regarding absorb spells and powers. Too bad because it smoothed out some of the vanilla issues without changing things too much.

I decided to go back and search for the temporary solution I vaguely remember. I found it in Repairing the Cogs of Morrowind thread #14 from back in 2009. Here is the relevent quote in the first post:


There is now an MCP fix called Restore/Drain attributes fix. Maybe it's as simple as unchecking it to make Madd Leveler work. I am going to try it and if it works I would put Madd Leveler at the top of my list because it keeps the vanilla style but eliminates the wasted attributes and the necessity of keeping track of skill ups for those who care about that sort of thing. It's definitely worth checking out.

http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=5316

I

I mostly ignore it and just make a compromise between the attributes I want to level with time and the modifiers I happen to get for them. Sometimes I "optimize" with training in-between, be that a whole level / attribute, or to just enhance my current flow somewhat.

Reading this thread, I'm kind of glad I never dug into the statistics of the game. I tend to improvise to the best of my knowledge.

Vanilla ain't perfect, but I prefer it to mods like GCD/Madd. Kudos to those particular modders though, as a lot of people seem to enjoy them.

I don't really mind not being able to max out attributes because of skill increase modifiers or whatever, that's what artifacts and enchanting are for as far as i'm concerned, my issue was with the way health increases were handled/not retroactive. Endurance bonuses from gear were largely, if not entirely, worthless since they could neither increase your HP through retroactive calculation, or at level up. Oblivion had the same problem if I recall right.

Thankfully min/maxing isn't necessary in Morrowind, through enchanted gear/artifacts in the game, you inevitably become really strong either way.

With a leveling mod, you make your leveling decisions every time you use a skill. With the vanilla system, you make these decisions twice, and the second time doesn't completely reflect what you did when you used the skills. I find a well-designed leveling mod less annoying than vanilla.

I used to use GCD for everything except fighters and fighter hybrids. Now I use it for pure mages, and Balor's for everything else.

The leveling mod that feels most like vanilla is Linora's: for every skill you would have got more than a X1 multiplier in vanilla (X2 to X5), Linora's offers a preset multiplier- X4 for the standard esp, but X3 and X5 are options. So you don't have to plan ahead or buy training, and can just play the damn game.

I don't understand this part of your comment "or over level 20". Would you give some context? Are you talking about chars that play the MQ or those that don't?

I use GCD all the time now because power leveling was too tempting and because I believe that you should be able to continually improve your skills and attributes over the course of the game, not be capped at 100. GCD allows me to focus on the game rather than keeping a scorecard of what to work on to get a 5-5-5.

Well, because GCD favors skills that start at high levels, naturally the attributes that go with them are also favored. The result is that most characters will build two or three attributes at a reasonable rate but will find that raising the rest of the attributes is quite slow going. I have had many GCD characters but I don't think any of them has made it past level 20 even after extended play time and with at least one attribute over 100. If you play one character for hundreds of hours, of course, you will get to a higher level but it's much slower than vanilla.

edit: I should add that you don't really need to get much over level 20 even for the expansions. You should be god like at level 20 in the main game and at least adequate for the expansions.
I should also add that GCD uses Attribute raises instead of skills for leveling and minor skills contribute relatively little to Attributes. This means that it might require 40 or more minor skill ups to get a single character level which is why leveling takes so long.

Vanilla.
If I work only my upper body strength today and cardio tomorrow, then my RL workout doesn't "break my immersion". It is a grind to target specific muscle groups but it actually works. So I don't mind my character doing it the same way. Plus, with a little thought, the routines have a better payday than low level adventuring. Right off the boat I can Summon an Ancestral Ghost, cast Soul Trap and then incinerate it. This improves Conjuration, Mysticism and Destruction while increasing intelligence and willpower at the level up (with room for one point of luck). You also get a filled soul gem. Summon a similar ghost for a few seconds and cast Bound Spear. Stick it a couple of times before it vanishes and then repeat. Now even a mage can improve Endurance. Summon anything and improve weapon, block and armor skill in combat and then armorer skill to repair things. Use filled gems to improve Enchant. It only takes about two game months to gain 70+ levels and then I start adventuring without ever worrying about stats again.

vanilla. I play what skills I picked for my class and no others and it works great for me.

Greetings all, hope you are well. I've had a rough few days and I haven't been on the computer much at all, but I have been following this and thinking about it. After reading all of the posts (and thanks, everyone, for your input... this has been a very interesting and enlightening discussion so far), I think I have come to realize a couple of things...

First, I think the "real" question behind this is "what kind of game are you playing?". Are you concerned with things like maximizing potential, finding the most efficient way to level, and reaching the highest numbers in every meaningful attribute or skill? If that's the case, from reading all the comments I think it boils down to simply being a matter pf preference. There are little details that matter more to some than others, like allowing attributes and skills to rise higher than hard-coded limits (that's one I was always annoyed with, too, and was glad to find that some mods address this). But ultimately it's all about numbers when you play that way, and if that's the deal then I don't think any one system does it better than any other, vanilla included... once you find the one that fits what you want out of your experience, you go with that one and you're gaming happily ever after.

But you guys have helped me realize something I did miss about the vanilla system, which leads me to the other thing I have come to realize... If you're not worried about playing a numbers game, then vanilla leveling may just be perfect. To clarify that I should say, until recently, I would have resisted the notion that I, myself, play a "numbers" game. I'd argue that...

"No, see, I'm using a mod so don't have to worry about the numbers."

To which my devil's advocate self would say, "OK, fine, but to what end? I mean, what's the big deal?"

"Well, if I play vanilla, and I don't worry about the numbers, then my character will be penalized each level-up. She won't be able to get the best multipliers, and so her other stats suffer. With the mod the stats don't suffer like that. See?"

"But you said you weren't worried about stats... you know, numbers."

"Well I'm not see.... you're not paying attention!"

/blink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' />

Or something like that. I confuse myself a lot. Point is, I realized that I am actually playing a numbers game... I'm just trying to push the handling of the numbers out of the way so I don't have to see the process. I still want my characters to be the best they can be... I just want it to happen in a way I consider more natural. Playing that way is fine, and I've had too much fun doing it. But now I'm thinking maybe I've been missing part of what the game's designers had in mind... maybe I haven't quite experienced TES3 (or TES4 for that matter) in it's truest form yet, despite countless hours of play. I think about how much more meaningful some of the artifacts in the game would be for a character that's more modestly developed... and how much harder some things could be... So yeah, I have definitely been enlightened to a new way of thinking about character development in TES games. Something tells me my next character is going to run sans leveling mod... but we'll see!

So thank you so much; this turned out to be more than I expected in some ways. Please keep the comments coming... they've been excellent so far!

This is and easy one for me: I can't define it. To me, it is a very general concept that has to do with losing oneself and one's worldly concerns for a period of time while enjoying some activity. Beyond that, you have to get specific... it simply can't be generalized any further. There are too many parameters, some which aren't always applicable, and some which aren't even game-related. What I need in order to be "immersed" in something is never the same, and it often has a lot to do with what's going on in my life, the state of mind, body, and spirit. In short, I can't define it, but I know it when it happens! I started http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1436451-tes-for-escapism-when-dealing-with-a-chronic-illness/ that gets closer to this kind of stuff if you're interested. It's talking specifically about escapism, and immersion certainly an integral piece of that.

Thanks again all, and take good care!

I don't care what the game's designers had in mind. It's my game, not theirs. The game's 'truest form' is whatever I say it is. And that is exactly why I use mods.

Well, I was speaking for no one but myself, but at least we know how you feel about it. As always, you mileage may vary (but do I really need to say that in every post?)

I'm using one of the newer or modified versions of GCD (found in one of the threads here) with that one variable modified that affects how strongly your starting skills affect your stats and leveling. Level up screens were fun when I was new to Morrowind, but now I understand the mechanics I prefer the seamless method, and having stats that reflect skill levels.

/blink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' /> Actually, that's kinda the whole point of Endurance.

Personally, out of several leveling mods I tried in the past none of them were good for me, 99% of those gameplay mods do more things than I need and many features are illogical in my mind, so I eventually ditch it and go back to vanilla. Thus I voted vanilla.

Which was actually the point I was attempting to make as well (I was rushed at the time and didn't explain myself as well as I would have liked).

When it comes to these kinds of discussions players can be split into two groups: those who want to experience a game 'the way the developer intended' and those who want to make their own games. Or, as I often put it: those who want to be told a story and those who want to tell their own stories. The first group wants someone else to be in control of their gaming experience. The second group wants to have control over their gaming experience.

Those who want to be told a story are much less likely to want to use mods. Those who want to tell their own stories are much more likely to use mods. That's all this boils down to. Do we want someone else to tell the story? If so, we will probably not be very interested in mods. Do we want to tell the story? If so, we will probably be interested in mods. The choice is ours.

No, that is not what this discussion is about. You have some interesting views, but the notion that some of us want to be told stories, and some of us want to tell our own stories, has nothing to do with this. If your gaming experience boils down to these simple terms, that's great. But that's not my experience, and I doubt it is very representative of this community. But.... your mileage may vary.

I use mods to make the NPC's look better, or add more dungeons/quests, or add new monsters. I get to tell "my story". I just don't use a mod to make the leveling "more realistic" because no matter how you phrase it, the mod makes the leveling easier. That's what modders do. If they created a mod to make the levelling more difficult than it already is, no one would use that mod. In the Army we trained all the time. Yes, it is a grind, but it pays off. You get to survive. Bethesda got that part absolutely right and I don't need to change it.
"...you know that you deserve every bit of your success."

I'm another fan of MADD Leveler. The only down sides, in my opinion, are that ( 1 ) it speeds level-up by a couple of percent over vanilla, which makes for a slightly shorter game; ( 2 ) it doesn't behave well with one of the optional fixes in the Code Patch; and ( 3 ) at really high levels, the method it uses for handling skills and attributes above 100 results in a lot of screen clutter due to the "fortification" messages (I rarely play a character long enough for it to become a problem). Otherwise, it's a "better" attribute system that's a hybrid between the vanilla system and a pure "just play" system like GCD. In essence, it gives you most of your increases as you play, but reserves a small fraction to allow you to manually choose to increase three attributes of your choice by ONE point each at level-up. In my opinion, it's got the best of both worlds, and I'd use it all the time except for the couple of small issues.

GCD handles high-level skills and attributes seamlessly, is unobtrusive, and even adds a badly-needed magicka regeneration feature (although I felt it necessary to reduce it by 75% to keep my semi-mage characters from becoming spell-spamming monstrosities even at low-to-moderate level). Unfortunately, it provides VERY few points of health to any character who's main job is to NOT get hit (archers, spellcasters, thieves), so you end up with a high-level killing machine character with 90 hitpoints. One area-effect spell thrown at you and it's reload time. Unlike "vanilla" and MADD, you ONLY gain health points when your armor skills level (or you level a few other skills where it's a small secondary effect), not a few at every level-up, so if you take no damage, you don't gain hitpoints. I recall one vanilla character having between 200-300 hitpoints at a certain level, whereas a similar GCD character ended up with well under 100 at the same level. Otherwise, I love the mod, and still use it for "specialist" characters (pure mage or thief); not so much for "hybrid" classes (battlemage, combat archer, assassin, spellsword, etc.).

Vanilla makes getting "multipliers" too important to be easily ignored, and I'm often tempted to abuse the system even where I'm consciously trying not to. The actual "levelling" is fine, but the "multiplier" system really needs to go.

Incidentally, I used Kobu's levelling mod in Oblivion, which was very configurable. The use of multipliers in OB's vanilla levelling system was as broken as Morrowind's, but the heavy levelling and scaling of opponents in OB made it even more important to micromanage it or fall behind the curve. In Morrowind, you can simply "outlast" the opponents by levelling up repeatedly until nothing can touch you.

This is indeed one of the least attractive parts of GCD but there is a way to deal with this at least partially in case anyone might be put off totally. GCD takes fortifications into account so temporary endurance boosts give health boosts. For example, just putting on the Bearclaw Helm will give you a quick 80 point or so health increase, possibly doubling a mage's health. You could also make a fortify endurance clothing set if the helm seems out of character.

In the beginning, I used to powerlevel my characters all the time. But after a while, I realized the constant grinding wasn't much fun and that the game was not built to handle superpowered characters (difficulty-wise at least). Not to mention, when all your characters end up with maxed out stats, they lose a part of what makes them unique. So I went looking for a leveling mod. Came very close to using GCD, but its focus on specialists and low health builds was going against my preference for flexible builds and my increasingly lethal mod lineup. My final solution was something I thought impossible: I turned off my powergamer half, stopped grinding/caring for multipliers and just played the game. The results were surprisingly good, to say the least. Nowadays, my views on stats could be summed up pretty accurately with what Pluto said earlier:

This. As I have read these posts, this what I have come to realize. You said it much more clearly than I, though! Thanks!