Something that I've seen brought up a few times in various discussions is the concept of non-lethal weapon damage being added. It occurs to me that adding a second "Stamina" bar under a different name would serve a few purposes.

It would allow those of us not willing or wanting to kill a particular target to use forms of non-lethal damage (hand-to-hand, blunt weapons/tools such as a blackjack) to incapacitate them by reducing this bar to 0. It would also mean that sleep would become important; staying awake for long periods or engaging in physical activity for an extended time would reduce this bar, as would selecting fast travel options like travelling recklessly, if incorporated into the FT system.

This seems like an addition that those thief types would particularly enjoy using, and if implemented properly, would add immersion to the system without encumbering the casual player too much. It also opens the door for all sorts of different characters. You could poison someone's food with a concoction that renders them unconscious, giving you a chance to lift their key without killing them or pickpocketting. Perhaps the Fighter's Guild wants you to bring someone back alive. There are lots of opportunities for using this state.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Comments?

I like it. I've often wanted to roleplay a non-killing thief but never really had the opportunity in Oblivion without an insanely high Sneak skill to pickpocket :/

I think it sounds pretty cool. The thing i hate about RPG games is I cannot be an evil dude and just go killing recklessly, but with something like this i'd be able to get the keys from the guard with a guilt free conscience :celebration:

I like the idea. Often in the Thieves Guild, you would have to complete a mission without killing anyone, but perhaps if your Hand-to-Hand is high enough, you would be able to perform certain moves to knock enemies out. This could also make the pick up button useful, as you could use it to hide the bodies so as not to arouse suspicion (I'd like this to be implemented whether or not knock out moves are).

I doubt something like this would be doable at this stage in development, but it's worth mentioning I thought. It relies on a lot of different changes to existing systems to really function, then you need to decide if dealing non-lethal damage should be significantly more difficult than lethal damage, or if it can result in lethal damage if you do it incorrectly. Lots of variables to consider.

I would like to see something like the blackjack you had in Thief. It would add so much utility and roleplay value.

Simply put, as I'm kinda in a rush atm; do want. Beth, see it done please! :3

I think its a great idea, but not only make sleep imporant, but rather eating food. Who hasnt been doing something and not eat for a while, and when you get up you feel very weak, or light headed. This could act the same. I recently went ditch banging on my sled, and it was a hell of a work out, and I didnt bring enough food, when I was done, and driving home I had to eat snacks on the way home cause I felt weak.

I like this idea.

Baldur's Gate did this nicely. Basically (IIRC) most characters could not deal lethal damage with fists, and so attacks that used fists would [eventually] knock out the opponent instead of killing them.

isn't there already a spell damage fatigue, so you would just make things pass out, this could also be applied to a weapon, I hope they have weapons for unarmed

The reason I would suggest keeping them as two different things is to represent short-term exertions (Stamina bar) and long term fatigue (The proposed bar).

Otherwise I'd be concerned that jumping over some logs would make you more susceptible to passing out of someone were to punch you. There probably should be a relationship, but I don't know if a 1:1 would be the route to take.

First off, I love this idea. It's pretty hard to square being a monk, when you're murdering everyone that crosses you.


It's always bothered me that you never tie anyone up and gag them after knocking them out in other games. It's all very well knocking someone out, but most people wake up within a few minutes. You would have to be incredibly quick to make hiding a body worth it.

The blackjack was my favorite weapon in the Thief games. Silent yet deady non-lethal. Hehe.

The food idea works well. Different qualities of food and your accomodations could factor in, giving us a reason to stay at the nice Inn rather than the hostel, or to buy a steak dinner instead of eating a carrot we found in a crate.

It would actually be very easy. Just give certain weapons a script effect and low damage. The script effect would basically be something to simulate being knocked unconscious. Like adding an ability that toggles their detection (to prevent them from calling the guards, as they just got smacked in the head with a stick), sets their fatigue to -10 (to ensure they crumple), and then toggle their AI (to make them stay that way). After however long the duration would be, say 1 minute, it just reverses these effects in opposite order (turn AI back on, set fatigue to normal, and then turn their detection back on). Easy stuff if you know how to approach it

However it's done I would really like some way to 'knock people out' without killing them.

I find this actually one of the most important things that they should add, I'd love to be able to leave someone alive, instead of murdering everyone I see.

That's a good way to go about this if if doesn't get put into the game through other means.

I'd prefer a full implementation, just to include the changes to fast travel, extended physical activity, sleeping, eating, the ability to use your fists for this purpose, as well as with special weaponry like a blackjack.

It would also be interesting if we could drag the unconscious target as mentioned in an above post, toss them over our horse (I'm making them implement all sorts of features in my dream world, apparently), and bring them to the guards in the case of the fighter's guild quest I described above.

Not that I'm getting carried away or anything.

I really like the idea about being able to just knock someone out instead of killing them. It would just be like when a "Main Quest" NPC is killed knocked out.

In for reals actual life, there isn't much you can do to reliably knock someone out that isn't likely to just plain kill them. A sleeper hold is the closest thing, and even that kills people sometimes.
A whack to the head will crack the skull and, at bare minimum, hospitalize the person for a very long time. More likely you would permanently disable them or, since you just leave them lying there, kill them.

But yea. Elves, Dragons, Orcs, &c. A Sleep spell/poison would work fine. A wizard did it.

Grr...hand to hand is deadly too. There's a reason bare knuckle boxing was banned, and why boxers now have to use gloves. A few weapons that KO people instead of killing them is fine with me, but never should bare hand to hand be considered non-lethal.

I think he meant changes more on the game balancing side of things, not so much the programming.

Yep. There is basically no real-world non-lethal solution. Nets, maybe.

Edit: And aren't the gloves more to protect the bones of the hand and face from fracture? I read somewhere that boxing has a higher rate of in-ring death than MMA because the large gloves make it easier to just wail on a dude's brain. I have no source for this.

Baldur's Gate didn't let you just knock them out cold, you basically had to beat them senseless to where they passed out from abuse.

I like this idea too.

It seems like a logical continuation of the "damage my fatigue to make me topple" mechanic; perhaps you don't even need a new bar?

Maybe it could just be like "negative stamina," where you take damage in excess of your stamina, and when you hit say -50% or something you're unconscious.

(This is essentially what Dungeons and Dragons v4.0 does with health; damage taken in excess of your Hp value is totaled as "negative hit points," take too many and you're dead dead)