Even in the ending slides my impression was that great care was taken to show that every faction's ending has its good and not so good aspects (maybe excepting the Yes Man ending where you do everything right).

Yeah, this is basically how I see it as well.

Peace is a very loose term. There isn't an evil faction or a good faction, they are all shades of grey. The most morally good faction is the Followers of the Apocalypse. As I said before evil and good aren't really words that can be attributed to people. They are absolutes and people are more complicated then these words. This is why only actions can be good or evil, but even then it is all about perspective.

New Vegas is very gray and grey morality, a huge departure from Fallout 3's "Brotherhood Knights" and "Enclave Demons" implementation. None of the factions are completely evil, and no one (besides MAYBE the Followers of the Apocalypse) are completely good. If you look at the Fiends and Motor Runner, Motor Runner is actually quite polite to you if you try to negotiate with him, he barters with you for chems, and he genuinely cares about the Fiends (he calls them "My people" and tries to shelter them from the hatred of outsiders). Really, even if the Fiends may seem maniacal, they too have their lighter sides. Caesar's Legion, despite its initial impression as a manic cult of personality built by a narcissistic Follower who deludes his men into thinking he is a god, does offer a measure of protection against the horrors of the wasteland as well as a measure of order.

Conversely, the NCR, who are portrayed on the lighter side of the spectrum, are still corrupt and do their share of evils upon people - mainly the smaller towns who are taxed heavily. Their corruption and the inherent apathy that radiates from some NCR members about the Wasteland shows that even societies built upon the pillars of democracy and people's rights can and will go wrong when it comes to political posturing. Mr. House, for all the grandeur and order he has brought to Vegas, and for all his genius, acts as a megalomaniac not unlike Caesar who imagines himself a god presiding over Vegas. His securitrons, who provide the Strip with the peace and order it needs to maintain its status as a paradise in the desert, also oppress those who ally themselves with other factions and offer little respite from the eye of the house.

So really, no one is good and no one is evil. Some are better, some are worse. But all of them have something (no matter how minor or major) to offer the Mojave with their rule.

Well, if you are the ultimate goody-two-shoes, then you pick the lesser evil. Which, again, depends on your perspective.

IMHO, 3 out of 4 of the major factions are neutral, (I consider CL evil, but there are people who could argue with me at length about it). I normally choose what faction depending on my morals.

I think House is the best choice, he also treats my character with the most respect, and has enough bottlecaps and wit to fully recreate the economy. Not to mention, his securitron army is... UNSTOPPABLE!.... JK, but seriously they're bad-ass.

I was going to say this but you said it for me.

But Caesar does something I didn't expect him to do, and that was If Caesar was an evil psychopath, he wouldn't have done that.

Julius Caesar killed thousands of people, men women and children. Yet he goes down as one of histories greats Generals. History is writen by the winners. Many "evil" people if they had won their wars would have gone down as the greatest of all time.

"Evil prevails when good men fail to act" -Edmund Burke. So if you think about it, NCR has the power to stop Caesar, but they don't use it.

What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."-Lord of War

Good and Evil go out the window in war, they are replaced with live or die.

But if you still hold onto such morals, then House is the only evil choice.
The rest are gray.

Its the reasons behind going to war, that people try to find good and evil in. War, war never changes. Humans will always fight one another and go to war. We call our enemies evil, so that we can dehumanize them. To make it somewhat easier to kill them. Cause deep down I don't think its in most people to want to take a life. Which is funny because we go to war alot.

Best quote from Men in Black "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it"-Kay.

Wow Legion rules NCR for the blues still.

Ok question I saw was can I stay evil and still do all the quests I want to, yep most quests allow open things to be done. From Goodsprings to all larger quests there's a good, bad and ugly way normally, or in lots of them just point and shoot.
Just look and thnk what to do, while most are possible, not all are obvious and some have requirements

Simple also want to do an evil Legion run ( Note evil Karma, not ohhh the Legion are evil, which makes them bad guys ) and not run the risk of getting by the end good karma to the 7 heavens.
Just steal and hack terminals, then on hacked terminals keep entering them again and again. It'll lower Karma each time you use a hacked owned terminal.

People forget that Julice Ceasar did kill thousands of men, women, childern, and same thing goes for a lot of people out there that we seem to adore - or be fascinated by. I won't list names.. because *truely* every person we consider 'great' has killed some one in some way.. rather it be the president sending people who die during a war out.. or a man who actually fought along side their soldiers and killed. Nether the less, theres always more behind then what you see or hear of feel.

As for why we call Julice Ceasar the most "astonishing" (better term) is quite possibly because he had defeated ten or so times larger armies then his troops with a play of mindgames. Same with Greeks, it shows that truely brains beats bronze. Historys proven that. And I am a ferm believer of it. I forgot exactly what battle it was, but Julice Ceasar was faced with (like I said) ten or so times the rivals and with a well-done hit from his Calvery, he wipped and retreated the enemy out.

Then there was always Pompey, what I think was a friend to Julice, and yet come the final battle that secured Ceasar's throne he slaughtered his troops in a play of.. cunning perhaps?

Nether the less, that is why I believe Julice Ceasar is renouned as a great general, though he killed hundereds possibly himself, and thousands more though his men, he is given that title for brains.. more a less bronze.

Julice Caesar was a great General. Worthy of his place in history, but the point is he won. Gauls were branded barbarians and the Romans the civilized heros. Humans go to war because we are dumb, panicky dangerous animals. The induvidual person doesn't want to kill people, but when in a large group, all independent thought falls away. It is the rare person that takes action when something horrable happens. Most would just stand around waiting for others do do something about it. Good and Evil are just concepts we use to justify our own acts and to condemn and dehumanize the enemy.

I do believe there are good people and evil people. But it is hard (cause there is none) to find a society in human history where everyone was evil or good. For people that don't believe me that humans are stupid panicky animals. There is a reason its against the law to yell fire in a movie theater. As Fallout 3 put it: "since the dawn of human kind when our ancestors first discovered the killing power of rock and bone, blood has been spilled in the name of everything from God to justice to simple psychotic rage."

A good Pratchett quote fits this quite well:
The intelligence of a mob can be gained by taking the IQ of the dumbest participant and dividing it by the amount of people in the mob.

Eddy does revere Julius Caesar, he even says that the Colorado river will be his Rubicon.

You're making a false equivalancy in equating being a 'great general' with 'not being a psychopath'. Alexander was a magnificent general all the way to his young death, but I don't think you'll find anyone (except children and Greek nationalists) arguing that he wasn't becoming a psychopath towards the end.

Another thing to note is that the original Caesar came from a time where such savagery in war was generally expected. Our Caesar was born in the NCR, and belonged to perhaps the only faction we see that could unreservedly be called morally 'good', yet consciously chose to turn to savagery. There's a reason why Hitler is considered more 'evil' than, say, Timur the Lame. In other words, context is everything.

I like that

@Tranquillus. My point is if Hitler won his war, there would be a painting of him in every home on the planet. A statue of him on every town square. He was evil, and unlucky for us, he was also given that rare gift to turn entire populations into mindless mobs willing to do horrable things.

Remember Caesar was a Follower. He went out into the wasteland and saw people suffering. So what did he do? Helped them defend themselves. Made them strong. The very first time I played through Fallout New Vegas. The very first thing that came to mind was: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patterns_of_Force_(Star_Trek:_The_Original_Series) Star Trek. The one where a historian went to another planet. Things were in Chaos, so he decided to give them order. He used the most efficient society in human history to educate them. The Nazis "Hitler shaped a battered Germany into and economic superpower"-Fallout. He was hoping to just keep the good parts, everything up to the point of invading poland, but it failed.

Edit: By that I mean Caesar reminded me of John Gill. But with ancient Rome not Nazis

I agree with your premise that history is subjective, but I do also think it can and often is overstated, since the implication is that Hitler is only so vilified because he lost. He is so vilified because he was also a person who did terrible things. Rommel isn't so vilifed, and neither was Hannibal by the Romans.

Small point in your overall argument, I guess. It's just a pet peeve of mine.

Hannibal's reputation was actually created by the Romans. He was good at winning battles and did nearly destroy Rome, but he was terrible at winning a war. What better way to make yourself seem more powerful then to exagerate the prowess of your enemies.

Well, that's Maharbal's assessment, but imo Hannibal had no chance of actually winning the war, especially after the Romans started using the Fabian strategy. It wasn't his fault that the Italian cities as a whole would turn out to be much more loyal to Rome than he thought, or that the government at home completely failed to support him.

The Romans also did not limit their praise of Hannibal to his military prowess - Roman accounts are full of what an all-round admirable dude he was, which they did not need to do if their purpose was solely to bask in the reflected glory of his genius.

Supporting Legion doesn't make you Evil nor does supporting NCR make you Good
Who would have thought of adding a touch of grey to everything, silly people giving us choice

Talk to any guys who drive tanks, they will tell you all about how great Rommel is.

The thing is, the extent of the NCR's 'evil' is overtaxation and, if the Khans are still around, them gradually being driven out of the Mojave; Caesar's evils are far worse in terms of slavery and generally the brutal culture he imposes. Sure, it's all about perspective, but you have to question the morality and reasoning of someone who considers Caesar's legion as the better option for the wasteland. The way I see it, it's not really a matter of picking the side which is good, but picking the lesser evil, and Caesar's Legion is never the lesser evil purely going by the end slides.

I also doubt he would have won the war, but I do think he could have sacked Rome. He was in Italy for 15 years, the problem was that he relied heavily on Bronze age superweapons like Elephants and catapulting snakes in pots.

The Karma thing is just an afterthought in this game. You have to be a murdering cannibalistic thief to get any bad karma. Hell, Caesar is considered neutral karma. And apparently killing Ferals is the saintliest thing you could ever do next to giving water to beggars.

I think the faction the users here holds near and dear to them speaks about who they are as a person ideologically speaking.

NCR fans see the NCR as good are likely supporting NCR because they believe in the 'American Ideal', IE Democracy at all costs, seeing overtaxation and people being forced off their lands because NCR claims it as their land by force as things all for the greater good.

Legion fans see the Legion's brutality and 'evil' behaviour as justified because the Legion, like it or not, their means do justify the ends. If Caesar wins in the Mojave, as brutal and savage as it is, he has an established society of law and order. Crucification is for disobedience and failures, as well as punishment for various crimes, or it's used as a scare tactic for enemies. For the people who support the Legion, the issue isnt that difficult, compliance in return for safety and security, which really isnt all that different from Elijah's plan, although I fail to see how killing people with a toxic cloud is productive in building a nation. Anywho, point in short. NCR rules with the threat of laws and jail, Legion rules with threat of pain as punishment or death. It's a harsher system than NCR's, but it works. Steal something in NCR land? A year or two in jail. Steal something in Legion territory? I dont know about you, but the idea of crucification or death scare me ALOT more than jail time.

For House fans, such as myself, the ends justify the means because for starters, what better than an army of robots? They're self sufficient and no lives are lost in war on our side if you have no humans on the ground. A machine is replacable, a unique human life is not. Ensuring a technocratic and progressive society is important because it allows advancement on a scale of Pre-War measures. For us, the idea is most likely 'this technology could do the Wasteland alot more good than 'governments' or 'barbarians'. We also recognize sacrifices must be made for the greater good. Kill the Brotherhood? Alright, they werent doing anything but wasting space. Convince the Kings to start a war with NCR? Alright, it helps keep NCR influence out of Vegas. For the House fan, pragmatic choices for the greater future are important. It doesnt matter if the choice is considered evil in the now if five years down the road it's built a brighter and stable society. So progress is important over individual people. Some may say I've not made any negative point about Hous supporters, but I have, it's just a subjective idea. If you think people are important over progress you may have a lot of doubt in your choices you'd have to make sometimes. We may not be devoid of emotion, but sacrificing the lives of a handful to save hundreds if not thousands is the pragmatic choice.

Indie fans I can't rationalize because there is no real 'general' touch. Each would support it for their own purposes, which is a myriad of attitudes I dont want to try and name and spend all day on.

Point is, supporting one faction that YOU (You being the character you made using the choices you yourself would make, not your RP character) make isnt about good and evil, it's about which faction is a mirror into who you are deep down.

I agree with the point that people do tend to identify themselves with a set of views, and therefore base their perspective upon defending those views, but then again, the type of people who genuinely believe the Legion system would work the best (not their character, themselves) can be called short sighted at best. The same arguments in favour of the legion can be made about many regimes the real world has seen, and in none of them can the potential punishments (death etc) be considered proportionate to anything than the most serious of crimes. The legion's ultimate goal of order is ultimately sound, but that would be to oversimplify the consequences of their success. I would consider it particularly difficult to argue convincingly that the implementation of slavery would be somehow better for the Mojave.

I'm not a fan of the NCR, but I do consider them the lesser evil purely in the sense that they're in the process of creating a democratic nation. People will still fall through the cracks and the majority will rule, but such is the utilitarian nature of democracy. House's model could also be considered sound in the way you suggested, I just don't consider it ultimately viable in the grand scheme of things because it concerns such a small area. The same can be said of the independent option; it provides potentially the best outcome for the strip, but it would be short sighted to consider that it would be able to hold out against an emerging nation.

Of course, an entirely objective viewpoint is pretty much impossible.

Because Caesar, like the Followers, is an idealist. A harsh, drastic, extreme and misguided idealist, but an idealist nonetheless. Thus, he sympathizes with them, as he recognizes that they're only trying to help the world in their own way. Caesar has his own way that's far different from theirs (to the point where many can't even UNDERSTAND how Caesar thinks he's helping) but can't bring himself to kill off good people with good intentions, just like himself.