I started several playthrus, always sided with the NCR and the good folks, never made it thru to the ending because of mod updates or new DLCs

Now I think I should bring it to an end, but Im not sure what faction to join...

We're you satisfied with your "evil" playthru and the legion quests, are there even as many negative karma quest, as a badass character you're supposed to skip all the do-nice-things-quests

I have never completed a playthrough as an "evil" character. My heroic Legion playthrough is coming along quite nicely, though. Max karma, killing NCR on sight, and bringing the Mojave into order for Caesar.

NCR aren't good. Neither are Legion or House. F:NV is a game where players can have deep philosophical discussions on the factions simply because it's not as simple as "hurr durr NCR is good cuz NCR is America".

-Nukeknockout

Theres not much to discuss,
staking and enslaving innocent people = purely evil
trying to set up some kind of stable and fair society = not evil (especially president Tandy has a very good reputation), though im not sure what the new president kimba is up too

Stable?

Hardly.

On Topic: NCR isn't the only good faction, actually, they are pretty Neutral, if I can say so. They're all neutral, well, Caesar's Legion is normally evil.

You should certainly try House.

None of the factions in New Vegas are black and white. There are psychopaths like Lanius and Vulpes, but the Legion is the most likely faction to bring the stability and safety to the Mojave. The NCR have good intentions, but the leadership has become corrupted and their greed means that their reach has exceeded their grasp. I personally think that House is the best for New Vegas whereas Independent is best for the Mojave.

To be honest I forget the karma system is even in new vegas at times.
But.i mostly am a saint whenever I play.

There is only one 'good' group in New Vegas. The Followers of the Apocalypse. That's it, there's your good guys. Everyone else is, at best, tarnished by corruption, apathy, or dogma.

The Legion =/= Evil.

What I mean is, I think people play the Legion and think "oh I should help the Powder Gangers and destroy as much as possible." The Legion would be just as likely to help Goodsprings, Novac and Primm with their problems.

It was quite satisfying. x) But, Legion are still people. I think even to an extent Beth and Os forgot that. Though they think differently, certain things like the whole "slit your throat rather be caught prisoner" I think was an over exasperation as well as those things.

They would still nether the less most likely find some things nasty or such that we would.

Just because some one's life style is different - doesn't mean they're different from "you or me," they're still humans, they eat, breath, and still are killed the same way. The only thing different there, is their lifestyle.

Live and let die for Legion.

Nothing more, nothing less. They're still people.

Well if you want to be so extremely short sighted about Legion and only focus on those two aspects then yeah I can understand why you think Legion is evil.
But they aren't evil though, you need to get your head out of your ass about black and white morals and look at the bigger picture.
While brutal, they are working towards something good for the people.

NCR on the other hand no longer works towards the good of the people but for their own prosperity and wealth.
Use what evolution gave you and think about the factions, think about what they'll do in the long run and how it will affect them and their people.
For this, I consider NCR to the be 'evil' option.

The operative word there is 'trying'.

..yeah. Don't want to get into the whole Legion vs NCR thing again, because this isn't the thread for it, but if you want the Legion to not be considered evil you have to extend the same courtesy to the NCR.

As Gabriel said, if you want to remain focused on only those two things, then congratulations. You are missing the forest, sunrise, and waterfall for the twig.

For there to be peace, there must be brutality. There must be clear and drastic consequences to breaking the peace. For one who values peace over "freedom", the Legion is the heroic faction.

For there to be democracy, you cannot have brutality. Thus there will be little perceived consequence to breaking the peace. The one thing democracy allows in return for this is "freedom".

For there to be progress, there must be thought. "There is no greater evil than ignorance." Talk to Caesar, Mr. House, or pick your own brain and the thought is apparent. From where the knowledge comes and to whence it is going is clear. The closest thing you get to an evaluation of the NCR is from Marcus & Ulysses, decidedly not in the NCR.

This is actually an extreme simplification of the debate, but it illustrates what the factions provide.

You want peace? Legion is the faction who can answer this call and explain what they're going to do with it.

You want "freedom"? NCR is the only faction who can provide this, but you'll get a blank stare if you ask "Then what?"

You want progress? House is the clear choice.

-Nukeknockout

Agreed, although I don't like what the Legion does to the Followers. I think "freedom" should be under independence.

Based on my values, their are evil, big picture or not.
You think the end justifies the means, but they dont.

The word evil cannot be placed upon people, there are only evil actions.

It's not about "Ends justify the means". It's about "appropriate means to appropriate ends."

It's tough because evil is used as such a personal word. Let's clear this up:

Evil - Adj: Profoundly immoral and malevolent.

Immoral - Adj: Not conforming to accepted standards of morality.

Malevolent - Adj: Having or showing a wish to do evil to others.

Hence, Caesar's Legion is dictionary evil in this culture, seeing as they flout accepted standards of Western morality in favor of something more likely to work.

"evil" depends on the way you think and the culture you were raised in. I figure brutality is acceptable if it results in a better world, don't you?

-Nukeknockout

Well of course, the NCR as a whole isn't evil at all.
Most of their people (the average citizen) wants to do good.
But the ones in charge and the wealthy ones who own land of businesses are the greedy ones who will bring NCR to it's knee's and then decapitate itself.
They aren't factually evil though, I just consider 'the way NCR is going' to be an evil choice for the Mojave, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah and California. Though that's just my opinion on them.

But it's all speculation, since we know nothing about the synthesis Legion might become worse no matter what ending is used.
But as for what I know now of NCR I try to see what will happen to them in the future and I can't imagine a positive ending for them.
And if Legion's leaders are all killed off along with Dr House then I see destruction of what society is left.
So for me, NCR isn't fully evil, it's just their leaders and wealthy people that are in the long run.




Gingy, Really? For me they allowed them to leave the Mojave cause of Caesar feeling empathy for them.

I agree with you, but I find this hilarious:

Evil - Adj: Profoundly immoral and malevolent.

Malevolent - Adj: Having or showing a wish to do evil to others.

.... Is this a paradox?

Those are copy-pasted from a dictionary. I think it is, a bit.

-Nukeknockout

For those who think that enslaving, crucifying, and torturing people is only a twig rather than the big picture, I wonder what the same people would say when they are one of the twigs in question?

I also found the idea of peace requiring brutality to be an oxymoron.

The writers of this game want to paint humanity as negative as far as forming any type of social order at all. That's one way to view things, but good writing would have included positive order as well.

Good against evil. I think it is best described as who kills off the other group to say they were better than them & more morally perfect.

Unless of course history was written differently.

I only rushed through my Legion playthrough, and even then, I just did the quests the ultimate good way. I don't really see the Legion as evil, maybe by today's social moral and culture standards they are evil, but I just see them as not being what's best for the Wasteland. Mr. House is the the best thing for the New Vegas, and NCR is best for the future. Way I see it, NCR wins at Hoover Dam, it will lead to immense political trouble and cause strife because people like Kimball will stay in power. If Mr. House wins, he progresses New Vegas rapidly, and NCR, finally having a loss against someone, will take a good hard look at their past ways and reform its political system, starting with Kimball and Oliver being thrown out of office and demoted respectively. As for Caesars Legion, I just see it as one arrogant mans need to feel messiahnic. He intentionally keeps his soldiers ill-educated, and why? Because it ensures that Edward Sallow 'knows all'. Try and doll it out as you will, but the Legion is nothing more than a cult, and just like any cult has it's loss, when Caesar dies, the Legion dies with it. If Edward lives to see it to the endslides, his legion is a dark grey but highly efficient brutal lawful society, but if Lanius is crowned Caesar, the Wasteland is basically doomed. This just proves that the Legion follows Edward, not his ideals.

The main factions in Fallout New Vegas aren't 100% good or 100% evil. Just shades of grey, some darker than others but none are totally evil.

Except of course, when you reach the end. Then it all becomes apparent in the slides. I wish it hadn't been like that though.