:shrug:

Besides a corrupt Captain, none of those other things are actually corruption/implemented to even matter. And the forest thing is the biggest cop-out ever.

But before anyone throws a hissy fit for having an opinion of my own, I'll contribute.

The Shivering Isles was pretty good on lore, expanding on Sheogorath/Jyg and the concept of mantling. Not to mention seeing a different realm of Oblivion other than generic hell is nice.

What? So I should just accept someone else's opinion just because they've given me "evidence" that I don't see as correct? Sorry, but I'm not trolling when someone has asked me what I've thought and tried to disprove it as much as they can with, imo, bad examples.

Calling someone a troll here is against forum rules. Best just report such and let moderator sort it.


You don't have to accept anyone else's opinion as your own but it's really out of place and off topic in this thread. Also there are other threads where this might be on topic, this isn't the one. And remember that there is really nothing to prove or disprove but rather differing opinions and there is nothing wrong with that. Maybe you would be best to refrain from responding unless it adds to the OP of this thread. Let's please stay on topic.

You're forgetting that "lore" isn't synonymous with "game content".

The only bad "lore" in Oblivion is the human Akaviri in Pale Pass and a few other assorted things not coming to mind at the moment. Go ahead and [censored] about some of the game content, but the lore, as in the history, religion, and metaphysics are solid.

Oblivion Lore was poor, let's just face the facts. It embodied cliches, the elements of 'fairy tales', and lacked the elements of TES, corruption, betrayal, corruption, etc.

I guess not every plot can be a Tom Clancy novel.

And I guess somehow fairy tales are to be held in low regard.

If you think the lore was poor, you obviously didn't read any of the in-game books or pay attention to how the main quest related to past games and out-of-game books.

Morrowind was a corrupt place. Daggerfall was a mesh of city-states. Of course they would be more corrupt than the heart of the Empire.

I didn't say fairy-tales were bad, I merely noted that they're not quite realistic. And I've never read a Tom Clancy novel, isn't he the guy for Rainbow Vegas 6?

There were fairy tail elements in Morrowind as well. Just read up on ALMSVI, their rise and fall, and tell me that it doesn't seem like a classic fable.

It did, but not everything has to be that way. Every faction was good, no corruption existed at all. None whatsoever, except for the Dark Brotherhood who embodied cliche evil.

If I use the existence of necromancers in the upper echelons of the Mage's Guild as an example of turmoil and corruption within a faction, you'll just say it's an example of cliche good mages verses evil necromancers.

I suppose you're entitled to your interpretation but I'd prefer to keep mine, it's much more interesting.

I suppose the "Some say Traven is mis-using the power of the Archmage's position to further his personal agendas", "half of the council of mages resigned when Traven took over the position of Archmage", and the practice of necromancy being legal within Cyrodiil but despised by an Archmage whose policies tore the Mages Guild in half and led to its ultimate demise never quite reached certain people. It's not the first time people ignored all background context, ingame books, and everything else to be able to falsely claim "it's all cliche fairy tale crap".

If they can do it, though, so can I. Dagoth Ur was pure evil, period. He was a cliche bad guy who had to be killed by me. I don't care about his intentions and I don't care about the background story. The whole thing is cliche good vs. evil. :rolleyes:

Well that's all fine n dandy. But, I believe this thread is about Oblivion. Did someone say Morrowind was perfecct back there? Hmm... <_<

The problem in the instance of the mages guild wasn't a lack of background or depth, it was the presentation of those things. How did we know that Traven's policies were divisive? By hearing every mages guild member, a hundred times, say "Half the council of mages resigned when Traven took over the position of Archmage". To be fair, some of the quests in the guild made the point more effectively and subtly, and there was that one guy (Ontus Vanin I think) who was a retired mage's guild member, and I remember his disposition changed towards you as you progressed in the ranks... But the fact that the game threw those two sentences at us a billion times, every time we tried to have a conversation with a mage, really put me off.
In my opinion, that was the most apparent example of Oblivion's relatively poor conversation system.
Anyways, Oblivion wasn't cliche fairy tale crap. It had a bit less of the flavor and character that other elder scrolls games have had, but it was still great, and added TONS to lore, and was far, far from cliche. Even the main quest, which initially seems to be a boring "save the king, stop the evil mage", turns out to be supremely deep and complex when you examine it from a lore perspective.

Lets not forget the Fighters Guild. Here is their entire questline summed up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIzivCJ9pzU&feature=related And what do they do to get them back? Perform better? No. Actually complete their contracts? No. Start a more aggressive recruitment process? No. Not defaulting on contracts? No. So what do they do? They murder the competition and scream http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIzivCJ9pzU&feature=related

Hell, I can easily justify why every guild is Cyrodiil was evil and bad.

Thieve's Guild? They keep the poor just happy enough to be under their thumb, never ever going out of their way to help them back on their feet. They're the man who gives a man a fish and tells him to feed information to him, never teaching him how to fish.

Mages Guild? Pretty much what seti18 said. Traven was a piss poor, idealistic nut job given metaphorical the keys to a car, and decides to ban anyone from the car if they're listening to music along the trip. And lets be honest with ourselves here, necromancy isn't a school of puppy kicking and people sacrificing, it's anatomy, physiology and how to reanimate dead things. "But it's so dark and evil, all bad guys use it!" First off, you got a large group of mages that had pretty much been kicked out of the guild, just because Traven is some misguided fool whom people fawn over as a beacon of good, light, and farts rainbows and sunshine. You ask me, there are three particular schools much more dangerous if you ask me. Destruction mages' whole studies involve finding ways to maim and kill people. Conjurers bind daedra to themselves, and even then the bound daedroth doesn't always obey. Illusion spells can create the perfect thief, or manipulate people to the user's very whim. Here is what you all have to realize, magic is a tool. It is not good or evil, it's just a tool. The only thing that makes magic good or evil is how it is used, like all tools. An ax can be used to chop a tree, make firewood and other stuff, or be used to kill someone. Screw drivers help people build things, or can be used as an improvised murder weapon.

Dark Brotherhood? While they were a bunch of misfits and sociopaths, most contracts given were to off criminals, murderers, and rapists. They are amoral, in that they will go after anyone for the right price, but they're ultimately a tool to be used by those with money. Daggerfall was a little better in this regard, in that everyone employed you, and you kind of knew what position your employer was, socially. Some contracts were given to kill a knight for defiling a maiden he was sent to protect (makes the knights look bad for the romantic's choice of action). Nobles paid you off to kill a bard singing scandalous songs. Mages Guild members would come crawling to them to kill off renegade MG members!

If you look outside the narrow lens of the quest lines, you will see that there is something more going on in the organizations, and I find it quite interesting. Though, I will admit that going down a single path in each of the guilds did cause a person to play "stupid moves the story forward." I am not saying "OB SUX LOL!!!!!11!1!", just giving alternative ways to view the faction quests.

Guys, we have a "oblivion sux" thread a few topics down. Can we please restrict this discussion to there?

I liked Oblivion lore, but it does require a person to look at its presentation through a different lens, as opposed to walking that alternative path. The books put out are great.

Hell, you've got excellent views of the guilds in Oblivion. Except for TG.

Thieves' Guild were Robin Hood.

I will admit I was grabbing straws there, as that was really the only thing I could pin them down on, other than being a criminal organization. However, since DF, the Thieves Guild establishes itself as a necessary evil to make sure that thieves do not become too greedy, or end up botching a burglary and kills someone, and they really hate freelancers. Heck, in DF, if someone refused to join, they'd horrifically disfigure the that person's hands. They've always been a self-regulating criminal organization. They're a bit like the mafia in a way.

The Cammona Tong put them in their place, though.

Well, I went in a busted up their place in Balmora in Morrowind. Who just got put in their place?

I think its been said well already. The reason the lose of the jungle environment is mentioned so much is because its much easier to have a thought that embodies everything we missed rather than a huge list of complaints. Lots of things were missing from Cyrodiil (politics, religion, cultural diversity, etc) that, combined, created the general feeling of "Lord of the Scrolls: Return of the Champion".

If we're going by what's in the pocket guide, the Thieves' Guild in Morrowind was destroyed by the Tong.