Just went through Oblivion again along with Shivering Isles, and I was thinking that aside from various gaffs that can only be explained simply as that, Oblivion contains some very worthwhile lore that deserves discussion in one form or another.

The Commentaries on Mysterium Xarxes for instance is a wealth of knowledge that speaks on and corroborates other great sources of lore in TES. For example, Camoran mentions the Mnemoli at different points, ultimately declaring them as enemies of Dagon and Daedra. As far as I know the Mnemoli are a subject seem mostly if not entirely out of the game, besides the occasional book reference. Also, upon my last reading of them, I noticed that he, like many other thinkers in the Tamriel past and present discuss and philosophize over the nature of CHIM. The leading example of this is his reference to Tiber Septim and his remaking of the Great Forest. Great stuff in the Commentaries.

On the same subject of the realms of Oblivion, I had an interesting thought about the Daedric Siege Crawler. Basically, I always equated the Oblivion gates and the realms within as small Towers (as represented by an actual Sigil tower with the Sigil Stones being their Stones necessary for keeping the realms in Creation). Obviously, multiple Towers can exist within one realm, as seen by the multiple Towers of Nirn, so why not multiple Towers in a realm of Oblivion? Think back to Walk-Brass, Numidium, and now consider the Siege Crawlers. Both carry immense power and are nigh indestructible, and both require a Stone. My only reasoning for why the Crawler at Kvatch did not go on to destroy the countryside of Cyrodiil is that the Stone inside it was probably created in flaw and for a singular purpose to destroy a single city. Indeed, all but the first Stone can only exist as imperfect replicas.

The KotN expansion was also rich in lore. For anyone that wants information on the Ada and the 1'st era, KotN is a wonderful source. I know there are loads of threads already devoted to Pelinal and the Champion's possible successful mantling of him, so I will not discuss it further. All I can say is that the actions of the Champion in following Pelinal's path follow the process of mantling word for word.

"Walk like him until he is forced to walk as you" The Champion does indeed walk the path of Pelinal until he achieves what Pelinal could not and the title of Divine Crusader must pass the original and rest upon the shoulders of the Champion. Like an act of Apotheosis, there is a death of sorts, as the Champion enters or at least scratches the surface of Aetherius, returning as a 2-in-1 figure, and interestingly, this was only accomplished with the aid of one who previously achieved apotheosis, Tiber Septim.

On a separate note, I can't exactly remember who discussed the dangers posed by the existence of the Imperial City as a Wheel within the Wheel, but it may be of some importance that two tangential circles, the Prison and the Arcane University exist outside the city and influence it most like Masser and Secunda exist outside and influence Nirn.

I agree that Oblivion has plenty of good lore. Many of the side quests really delve into that, but I also once decided to make a list of all of Oblivion's books(only the ones it introduced to the series):

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:A_Life_of_Uriel_Septim_VII
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Rislav_The_Righteous
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ahzirr_Traajijazeri
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:History_of_the_Fighters_Guild
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fire_and_Darkness
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Five_Tenets
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Followers_of_the_Gray_Fox
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Hiding_With_the_Shadow
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Manifesto_Cyrodiil_Vampyrum

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Necromancer%27s_Moon
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pension_of_the_Ancestor_Moth
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Beggar
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Thief
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Warrior
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:King
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Argonian_Account,_Book_1
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Argonian_Account,_Book_2

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Argonian_Account,_Book_3
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Argonian_Account,_Book_4
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Beggar_Prince
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Exodus
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Knightfall
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Purloined_Shadows
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Refugees
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Thief_of_Virtue
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Adabal-a

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Amulet_of_Kings
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Battle_of_Sancre_Tor
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Before_the_Ages_of_Man
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Cleansing_of_the_Fane
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Daughter_of_the_Niben
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dwemer_History_and_Culture
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fall_of_Vitharn
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Last_King_of_the_Ayleids
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Legendary_Sancre_Tor

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lost_Histories_of_Tamriel
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Remanada
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_1
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_2
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_3
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_4
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_5
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_6
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_7

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Treatise_on_Ayleidic_Cities
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Advances_in_Lock_Picking
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ayleid_Reference_Text
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bark_and_Sap
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Calcinator_Treatise
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:De_Rerum_Dirennis
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:An_Elytra%27s_Life
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:From_Frog_to_Man
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fundaments_of_Alchemy
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Heavy_Armor_Repair

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:History_of_Lock_Picking
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Immortal_Blood
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Light_Armor_Repair
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Liminal_Bridges
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lithnilian%27s_Research_Notes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Liturgy_of_Affliction
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Living_Woods
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mace_Etiquette
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Magic_from_the_Sky

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Manual_of_Armor
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Manual_of_Arms
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Manual_of_Spellcraft
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Manual_of_Xedilian
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Predecessors
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Proper_Lock_Design
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Reality_%26_Other_Falsehoods
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Saints_and_Seducers
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Shivering_Apothecary

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Shivering_Bestiary
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Souls,_Black_and_White
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Standing_Stones
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Varieties_of_Daedra
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Way_of_the_Exposed_Palm
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Agnar%27s_Journal
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Amantius_Allectus%27_Diary
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ancotar%27s_Journal
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:A_Bloody_Journal
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Brenus_Astis%27_Journal

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Cap%27n_Dugal%27s_Journal
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Cindanwe%27s_Notebook
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dar-Ma%27s_Diary
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Diary_of_Springheel_Jak
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Doors_of_Oblivion
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Drothan%27s_Field_Journal
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Drothan%27s_Journal
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Father_of_the_Niben

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Frostcrag_Spire_Memoirs
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Gelebourne%27s_Journal
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Greywyn%27s_Journal
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Grommok%27s_Journal
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Journal_of_the_Lord_Lovidicus
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Log_of_the_Emma_May
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Path_of_Transcendence
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ramblings_of_Audens_Avidius
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Red_Kitchen_Reader
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Sacred_Witness
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Sir_Amiel%27s_Journal
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Traelius%27_Journal

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Traitor%27s_Diary
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Macabre_Manifest
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Report:_Disaster_at_Ionith
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Warp_in_the_West_(book)
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mysterium_Xarxes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Tome_of_Unlife
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Legend_of_Krately_House
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mannimarco,_King_of_Worms
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Ravings_of_Fenroy
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Song_of_Hrormir
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Black_Arts_On_Trial

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Myth_or_Menace%3F
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:16_Accords_of_Madness,_v._VI
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:16_Accords_of_Madness,_v._IX
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:16_Accords_of_Madness,_v._XII
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bible_of_the_Deep_Ones
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Blessings_of_Sheogorath
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Divining_the_Elder_Scolls
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Heretical_Thoughts

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Modern_Heretics
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries_1
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries_2
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries_3
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries_4
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Myths_of_Sheogorath
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Opusculus_Lamae_Bal_ta_Mezzamortie
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Prophet_Arden-Sul
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Shezarr_and_the_Divines
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ten_Commands:_Nine_Divines
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Trials_of_St._Alessia

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Glories_and_Laments
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Anvil
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Bravil
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Bruma
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Cheydinhal
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Chorrol
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_the_Imperial_City
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Leyawiin
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_New_Sheoth
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Skingrad

No one argues that Oblivion doesn't some sound lore, but it's really cancelled out by the lore breaking, that angered so many of us. That's my opinion, anyway.

The recent Shezarrine was a re-incarnate. The "wheel within the Wheel" man was Nu-Hatta. From Oblivion, I enjoy Talos' death and Dagon, son of Magnus. The Alessia stuff was fun.

lol at Cap'n Dugal's journal. When I think lore, I think stories, which people care to share, because there's a lesson in them somewhere. Maybe Dugal taught us not to parallel park a galleon inside a cave with an entrance smaller than a Nord?

Are you talking about the CoC? If so, there is no real indication that he's a Shezzarine. Just guessing work, really.

Fighting for the Nine
Killed some Aylieds
Wears magic armour of the nine

I don't know, I'm not convinced.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/nu-hatta-sphinxmoth-inquiry-tree

Fighting for the Nine - Mantle
Killed some Aylieds - Mantle
Wears magic armour of the Nine - Mantle

See the pattern that is patterned out?

Anyhow, there was pleny of interesting lore in Oblivion. What people have a problem with is that the region itself and its people tend to lack culture and flavor. There really isn't anything which makes these people stand out as Colovian, and these people stand out as Nebanese. It's possible that between the time the first pocket guide was written and the events of Oblivion, that particular cultural divide had mended. It makes the world less interesting, but it's possible. Another problem is that nine divines religion amounts to little more than some chapels. Of course it's concievable that the Nine Divines religion really did dwindle in importance, so that was all that was left of it by the time of the Oblivion crisis. Concievable, but not very interesting. Finally, because the Elder Council is gone, we learn really nothing about how poitics works in Cyrodiil. Of course there's an explanation in game for why they're gone. So, basically we've got a lot of things which can be consistently accounted for, but still make the world less interesting.

On that note, I've read that at one point Beth had intended on making the chapels play a more prominent role, and had also intended on having you join the Elder Council as part of the main quest. Alas.

So how is Pelinal not a power gamer?

Pelinal must have had some access to the Construction Set in order to erase parts of the map. Perhaps he got really angry that some enemies were so painstakingly annoying, he decided to map edit so he didn't have to deal with their [censored]. However, he forgot up back up his file, so when he die, he died. This, my friends, is why you always keep more than 3 saves on any character in TES.

With the prayers of the Paravania as regression testing.

How well did you listen to the Prophet?

The Divine Crusader is incarnate. Star-made Knight. God-craft. Shezarrine.

What lore breaking? And something other than the jungle or the lack of cultural division, those are explained by CHIM and 433 years of unity, respectively.

It's not even canon. MK made up some lore (very awful lore, if you ask me) in his own rage, because Bethesda were unwilling to even explain why the jungles suddenly turned into middle earth. You want a list of lore breaking in Oblivion? Here:

• The Imperial City was supposed to be full of corruption, greed, and poverty
  
• Cyrodiil was supposed to be HUGE. About 5x the size of Vvardenfell, I believe.
  
• The Imperial City was supposed to take up half of Cyrodiil.
  
• The Mage's Guild were supposed to be a guild of beurocrats with the occasional scholar thrown in. Not "Kill the big bad necromancer!" types.
  
• The Fighter's Guild were supposed to be merenaries. Not "Kill the big bad rival gang!" types.
  
• The Dark Brotherhood was supposed to be a guild of assassin mercenaries. Not emo puppy killers.
  
• There was supposed to an actual noticable difference between the Nibenese and Colovians. I don't care about unity, it doesn't need to be tense, but there needs to be diversity.
  
• The Imperial City was supposed to have dark alleyways, confusing escape routes and be a generally awesome place for assassins (actually explained in Oblivion during the Dark Brotherhood, but it wasn't there).
  
• Necromancy wasn't illegal. The Mage's Guild had no right to find and kill all those necromancers. They should have been trialed and at the very least, fined.
  
• The Imperial Cult was supposed to be most prominent and fleshed out in Cyrodiil. It was far more interesting in Morrowind, a place where they dispise Imperial culture.

Is that enough? Honestly. Lore was NOT one of Oblivion's good points. There may have been good things they done, but this is definatly not one of them.

Not canon? It's mentioned by Mankar Camoran in the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries_3. I think that takes precedence over out-of-game drama.


Most of that can be attributed to change (recorded or unrecorded) or misunderstanding. Or high expectations. I try to only call something "lore-breaking" when there isn't a viable in-game explanation. And I suspect we disagree on what is a viable in-game explanation.

Whatever. Doesn't make it any less ridiculous.


A viable in-game explanation would be:

1. Create lore.
2. Implement that lore.

Not

1. Create a game without a care about anything.
2. Quickly create some half assed lore.

Anyway, you're just defending Oblivion, with bad excuses, because, surprise surprise, it has a flaw, just like any other game in the world. "Change"? "Misunderstanding"? "High Expectations"? Pff... Awful exuses, if you ask me. I want depth to my lore. "A god did it" is not what I perceieve as great in depth lore.

Most of what you listed (i.e. guilds) are just problems with implementation, not actual lore breaking.

Lets keep this topic to the stuff you did like rather than rehashing (for the 20495490th time) the stuff you didn't.

I was asked to rehash it, so I did. :shrug:

I liked how fleshed out the individual cults of the Nine Divines were. :shakehead:

Seriously though, at least they fleshed out the Ayleids a bit.

As I recall, that's what I saw. A Mages Guild struggling with very recent, very large decisions that resulted in a large turnover, a Dark Brotherhood that has since been tricked back into worshiping Mephala, a Fighters Guild that is struggling with competition lacking its state-given restrictions, a city that IS diverse and DOES have its share of corruption, yet with people determined to fight it to make the city a better place, a nation once divided but where 433 years of unity has changed that (also remember Imperials don't live as long as elves, so cultural changes tend to happen faster), a city with a sewer network accessable by the homes of some, as well as not one but two Imperial escape tunnels, one from the Palace, one from the Prison, and a group of Necromancers led by the greatest of their kind, determined to destroy the guild that banned their craft (remember no necromancer was wrongly killed, every time it can be attributed to self defense) and necromancy wasn't illegal, just banned in the Guild. That's how I remember it



I defend it because I genuinely believe your criticism is unwarranted. Please, there's no need for trying to discredit the other person, when you could recognize that we both have different opinions on it. At least agree to disagree when opinion is called into the fray.

I think the bottom line of TESIV is that Dagon always loses, even when he's pissed.

Like Shezzar, the Divine Crusader, Pelinal-ada, and the CoC, recede at different points.

Also relevant is the idea of the Neravarine receding in a similar fashion.

Incarnates are tools of the Gods, Mantles persist in the forms of their actions and relics, but also ascend.

The essence of TES lore is that it mirrors RL religious theosophy in a world where metaphysics are the crux of the universe.

"A god did it" is rather simplistic, but most things in TES can be broken down into several categories:

-A god did it.
-A separate face of a god did it.
-An incarnation created by a god did it.
-A champion did it.
-An incarnation of a champion did it.
-A person who would later become a face of a god did it.

The lore of Oblivion isn't half-assed either. I've played OB since release and MW years before. After playing OB long enough, I've realized one important thing:

TES lore is much more vibrant and bombastic in written form. Why? Because the legends always are. Read "The Song of Roland" and then look up who Roland actually was.

There are loads of valid, extremely important lore points in OB. For Gods' sake, the creation theory concerning Towers and Stones is pretty much proven true with Oblivion Gates, and Almalexia's portent in "2920 The Last Year of the First Era" is also proven true, word for word.

There will always be issues with lore in-game, but it's your choice to focus only on the negative instead of studying the very positive.

The rest of what you've said may be partially arguable. But this? Seriously? What real forms of corruption are there in the Imperial City? And more than 1 or 2 examples, please.

-The corrupt guard captain.
-The pirates allowed to dock.
-The two Imperial families feuding.
-The near whole of the Waterfront.
-The exhuming gang.
-The Dawn cult/Prince Camarill.

He was doing his job. While he wasn't a saint, he was an average guy.


Does anywhere say that the Guard actually knew there where pirates there? Also, not corruption. Pirates have nothing to do with politics.


Never saw that, but it doesn't seem to be corruption. just seems like... Two families fighting.


Wasn't corrupt. Was just less than upper class. This is actually how I imagined the middle class areas to be. So much lost potential here.


What?


The Dawn cult wasn't a part of the Imperial City... It's also not corruption, it's just some random bad guys being bad guys. If they where corrupt, they'd be putting people into poverty for thier own greedy purposes, or be abusing political power for thier own greedy purposes. Being corrupt doesn't mean you're just some evil person. To be corrupt, you need power, and you need to abuse it for selfish desires. By selfish desires, I mean the likes of money, comfortable living, six, food, etc.

Anyway, I stand by my point that while Oblivion may have some sound lore, it also has a lot of bad lore. Far too much, for my liking, and I'm going to leave it at that. We're just going to be going in circles, otherwise.

If you're going to reject every piece of evidence contrary to your opinion then there's no point bringing up evidence at all. Stop trolling, I have a fireball spell.