What reasons can one give for joining the thieves' guild? With only a few minutes work chopping wood or picking crops even the weakest Last Dragonborn can afford to eat. After a few levels hunting wildlife and fishing are also on the table. Not sure if you can make money crafting without exploits or finding the materials yourself, plus it takes a fair bit of skill regardless. What I'm getting at is the most common reason to turn to a life of crime, desparation, is simply not an issue for the Last Dragonborn. So why else would they join the Thieves' Guild or even turn to a life of crime at all? Looking for suggestions here.

On a similar note, other than pickpocketing peasents and pilfering their pathetic possessions for a pittence, what is there for the independant thief? The lone wolf gets hardly any content from the creators which isn't really an in-character justification.

None of my thieves do the main quest so the issue of whether or not they're Dragonborn doesn't exist for them. My thieves are all ordinary people. One was a Dunmer who grew up in the alleys of Windhelm; another was a former soldier who fell on hard times and into a life of crime; another was a kind of Anarchist and viewed thieving as a form of resistance to the powers-that-be.

My Dunmer joined the Thieves Guild and finished it (it had been her goal to join since she was little, having heard stories about it on the streets); my former soldier joined, but quickly grew disenchanted and quit (eventually becoming a hired guard for caravans); my Anarchist did not join at all. She viewed the Thieves Guild with the same contempt with which she viewed the Jarls and the Empire itself.

Regardless of whether they were Dragonborn or not, they were still the player character and could have gotten an honest job.

Not all characters do what we would like them to do. You seem to be confusing this issue?

To me, it seems like there are just certain people who have that sort of personality quirk. They don't want to get an honest job. They don't want to be an ordinary citizen of society. Maybe they don't even want to be recognized for their shadowy efforts. They want some notoriety. They want to cause trouble. They want to BE the sort of person who others don't feel entirely relaxed around.

I've got a character idea right now who is perfect for this--he will be sort of like a Hell's Angels sort of guy, come to life in Skyrim. Can't wait until it rains again so I can create him. His name will be Bjorn Tubiwyyld.

Edit: Most of my characters so far have not been "the Dragonborn", so that's another thing. I would never create a DB character, who then resorts to a life of bullying shopkeepers and petty theft.

[side question: Pseron - that 'eventually becoming a hired guard for caravans' comment - did you do that via a mod, by chance, or was that more of an in-your-head RP thing?]

I think I see where the OP's coming from here. While I love thief characters in concept, at a certain point it can be hard to justify more thieving in an environment (Skyrim) which is pretty liberal with all the loot you can stumble over. There's lots of ways to make money, and after a few levels the amount you make from swiping petty trinkets just pales in comparison to what you can make off a single dungeon delve.

Some RP houserules can help this matter (as can mods, if that's an option).

But my preferred 'fix' is to make my thieves more like rogues, if that distinction makes sense. Since Skyrim doesn't really support cat-burglary and grand heists, my 'thieves' are often more than half adventurers in the mold of Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, always looking for the next big score from some forgotten tomb or wizard's den. Skyrim supports *that* style of play in spades, I find.

I can think of a logical reason behind even Dragonborn characters taking up thievery. they do have the soul of a dragon so it would make since they also have the personality and ambition of your average dragon IE ruthless ambitious jerk. I do agree though it would be nice if the average citizen had more to steal. You'll certainly get more gold just raiding tombs and what-not. Could always steal from Jarls though lol.

Could steal from Jarls, true, but TES games really don't do a great job with that type of stealth experience. Plus, do a few favors for some Jarls and you're not even trespassing. It's just rather boring.

One reason a character might turn to thievery and the Guild is the simple excitement of pulling it off. While it may be more profitable to loot a tomb, the challenge of picking a lock to enter a house, then sneaking through the house remaining undetected while you look for valuables, and the excitement of the chase if somebody detects you. It's really bad form to just kill the mark, eh?

As to picking pockets, my favorite mark is the Captain of the Guard in Whiterun. I go into the guard barraacks near the front gate, find him sleeping, and try to get his most valuable item. More often than not, he catches me, and then I have to refuse to surrender and try to escape him and every guard in the city. Of course I don't immediately run out the gate, and sometimes I remain hidden in the town until morning once I find a good spot. Great fun!

Aside from the adventure of it, there can be times when steel arrows can't be bought in sufficient quantity to do any good, and the steel to make them isn't available either. This usually happens for my characters after running out of arrows fighting dragons, so it's important to find some. the easiest place to find steel arrows is in a guard's inventory, eh? 10 or 12 at a time, so you have to steal all the arrows from a LOT of guards sometimes, especially if you're equipping followers too.

I also like to pick pockets of bandits before I kill them, and I often don't kill them at all. If they have nothing to steal, I'll often put something in their pocket just so, if they were actual people, they'd wonder where the heck that thistle or purple flower came from... Later on, if you get the poisoned and poisoner perks, you can really mess up people you need to take out by putting poision in their pocket.. I like to use a poison that creates "Slow", Damage Stamina regen", and of course, "damage health". turn tha bad ol' Bandit Chief into a little wimp...

The thieves guild provides you with jobs that should be challenging, but really are a bit less than wonderful most of the time, but they do provide variety of target and method. Frankly, I don't like the way the Thieves Guild is set up at the end, and I think the devs were checking out shrooms or something, but you can't have everything I guess...

To answer the questions of "what reasons" and "why else" I think you'd first have to delineate what you know versus what your character knows.

One of the simplest and often times more difficult aspects of RP is thinking in terms of your character and distinguishing between character knowledge (and pov) and player knowledge (pov). It's much the same concept as watching a movie or reading a book. Immersion is a good word to use but that tends to imply (to me) a greater depth of personal-emotional interaction which isn't always necessary (imo) to attain the point-of-view shift I'm talking about; seeing their world through their eyes. Understanding things at their level. I may be preaching to the choir here, but step back for a moment and consider that often times we as players (movie viewers and novel readers) are privy to greater insight and greater knowledge than these characters. In so many ways, we are like omnipotent-omnipresent gods viewing these worlds through a very wide picture frame.

I would ask myself:

Is chopping wood something that your character would innately know to do to earn money?

If so, how would they know this? You might answer that it just make sense. Certainly it does to you, but how would it to them?

Why is sneaking around and looting a house of valuables (while the residents are sleeping) better than chopping a ton wood?

Sometimes if you're blocked it helps to turn the question around. Instead of "why would they" ask "why wouldn't they". Why wouldn't they turn to a life of crime?

"Here for work? Get an axe and bring me all the wood you can chop." ~ All lumber mill owners and Hulda. "We could always use more help in the mines, I'll pay you for any ore you dig up" ~ All mine owners. Also simple observation of what people do all day informs one of how to make a living even if you were just suddenly dropped into the world Beastmaster 2 style.

Why wouldn't someone turn to a life of crime? It's risky as you can get caught and put in prision or fined, it's not all that lucrative, it destroyes your reputation with the authorities and law-abiding citizens, it breaks down or prevents people from trusting you, and it feels bad when you hurt someone's livelihood.

I never addressed the wood-chopping question posed by the OP.

Personally, I don't like to think that mega-Septims can be earned just from chopping wood. The concept is ridiculous. It's one of those things I like to fix on PC with mods, and back when I was playing the vanilla game on consoles, I would still press the 'wait' button to simulate extra amounts of time going by, to justify some of the insane amounts of money being made just for chopping wood.

But even so, not everybody wants to be a legimate citizen of society, with a solid job, and compatible reputation. Some people just want to be badasses. That's what the Ratway is all about, imo.

I like this answer. Sure, there's more money to be made looting tombs, but looting tombs is far more dangerous than breaking into houses sometimes. There's also a rush that I get (and I assume my characters sometimes get) while breaking into businesses and houses, it's different from looting lairs. Most of the time, when our characters go into dungeons, forts, tombs (etc.) they are doing so with the assumption that at some point, there's going to be some confrontation. There's going to be some sort of fight, between draugr, bandits, goblins (etc.)

But when breaking & entering into a house, the whole point often is to not be detected, not get a bounty, not deal with confrontation. And because of this, there's a tension that's present with thievery that isn't the same as lair-diving.

Well, it's a reason that makes sense.

If you've ever chopped wood with an axe, or used a pick to break up hard ground you'll know that it is really hard work. Nowhere near as painless as it seems to be in Skyrim. Some lazy Dragonborn types might turn to a life of crime because it's much easier to pick a lock and sneak into someone's house and take their stuff. I'm not condoning this kind of behavior, just pointing out that dragons spend a lot of time sitting on mountains doing nothing, they aren't used to physical labor.

Would you go through all the trouble of joining the Thieves Guild if its just to make a living?

As LostScout said above, it's hard work chopping wood. Any sort of manual labor for that fact be it mining, farming, smithing, even being an apothecary is hard/tedious and often times dangerous work. I'd think that's motivation enough for those that decide to become criminals. Why work, sweat, slave, and break my back for some coin when I can swipe as much (if not more) for another person? Thievery isn't always easy, but it's often quick and rewarding...more so than standing at a block chopping wood.

Just because you're a thief doesn't mean you're a bad person. I can still feel bad about taking things from people but justify it away as somehow 'necessary'. Everyone's gotta eat after all. Besides, how much harm could it really do? You have just a lovely house, own just nice clothes, and likely own a horse or can at least afford a carriage ride from place to place. What's a few missing silver plates and bowls when you obviously have so much more to spare. It's not like I'm a bandit or highwayman holding you at sword point, "give me all your things or I'll kill you". I'm just dipping into your pockets now and then for some spare coin, liberating you of your excess.

Hell! I'M REDISTRIBUTING WEALTH!

...and sure, your silver items and fine cloths will only go for so much. Maybe I want to up the stakes. If I'm going to be nabbed and do time for stealing something then it damn well better be worth more than a few measly gold coin. How would I do that? I could teach myself to pick locks and be sneaky, but you know what? A Thieves Guild might have people that can teach me these things. Also, once I've pilfered highly valuable goods from those that don't really need them, what am I going to do with them? I can't just mosey down to the corner market or sell it to the next vendor I see. It's STOLEN after all! What I need is a Fence, and I bet a certain guild has those all over the place. Or atleast... that's the rumor.

And so what if I get nabbed. I'll just take a respite in jail. Sure the food svcks and the conditions or wretched, but I'll survive and make it out to have another go at it. Or I may just get lucky and make a clean break.

I read your original post in the light of storytelling and role play (ie character motivation). Perhaps I was mistaken.

All this talk about story, role play, and character motivations aside; no it doesn't make much sense to join the Thieves Guild if all you're looking to do is farm gold. Setting your character at the wood block and walking away will net you a boatload septims all while you watch a marathon of TV show reruns or do actual chores. Alternately you can earn a lot of fast money smithing/enchanting items and/or crafting potions, especially if you spend time earning certain perks. You could stand at the chopping block for an hour and probably turn out more cash than running a few TG missions, but I'd sum that up in two words.

Game Mechanics.

Your character will never fatigue, will never need to take a break to eat/drink/sleep much less respite, there is no danger of accidentally missing and chopping off your foot or injuring a leg because you're fatigued, and even though you're "over encumbered" you can still slug 300 units of firewood back to the vendor and turn it all in for serious money. Game Mechanics don't always make sense in RP/Story context and are there more for the convenience of the player.

It was mostly in my head. To me, "the head" is truly where roleplaying occurs.

I did use a couple of mods. I used a camping mod so that my character could have a tent when her employers set up theirs. And I used a mod that added extra random hostile encounters, so that my guard would have more to do while traveling with the caravans.

But I think it could have been done in the vanilla game just as easily.

The Thieves Guild puts you on a steady payroll, which alleviates some of the uncertainty that a freelancer faces. Economically, there are far more people with the necessary skills to chop wood than to successfully rob a person or household, which means that the effort is far less lucrative. I also never got the impression that chopping wood or mining was a "job" for the player, merely a favor. In fact, mining will exhaust the ore deposits, which means that you can only get so much before having to move on or raid enemy-occupied locations. Thievery is comparatively safer because the threats are non-physical.

That said, if you want to spend hours of your life watching your Dragonborn chop wood, go for it, I guess?

Personally I like to be a thief because of the whole persona aspect of it. What I mean to say is it just feels cool to be a heroic yet troublesome rogue who rises the ranks of the guild and saves the world in the process more than a few times. And when you think about it there are a lot of poor criminals in real life ( not that I condone that behavior for real) and besides the armor you get is cool in the end anyway well it looks cool. Oh I learned early on that to be a successful theif is to increase warrior skills as well like smithing and one handed also if you want to do well as a stealth rogue then wield a dagger in your main hand so you get the stealth kill damage but have a sword in the left hand for when you need that extra punch in a fight! If you focus too much on stealth then well... You won't last long when you get caught.
Here are some good shouts for a theif sorry they aren't in dragon language!
Throw voice
Whirlwind sprint
Bend will
Oh Krosis is a good dragon mask for thieves ! Shadow and tower are good stones too!

Ahh, so you followed the Khajiit. Cool, I've never really done that in a consistent way. What did you do when they set up camp? I'd think it would be hard to keep track of them, since you'd have to know when they were going to leave, and unless you wait there with them in real time you might miss when they pack up.

There are plenty of reasons to be a thief. For example, you see a very pretty stone on someone's pocket and greed took over.

The bigger question is the justification for following the main quest of Thieves Guild

My character reasons are the same as Gallus. My characters do it for the fun and adventure, they feel more "in their element" breaking into a house then anything else. It's not that they don't want a honest job, they just do thevery for fun and the exeleration from almost getting caught then making a grand escape, most of which involve 500 horkers randomly spawning in the house.

I see a lot of discussion in this thread about the thrill of thievery.... I have to ask, is this a theoretical/RP thing?

Based on my experiences in Skyrim, robbing houses is singularly un-thrilling. There's no exciting loot, no 'big score' to haul away. Since you can't really stake out a house or peek in or listen at the door, you often don't know if anyone is there. If someone's in the house, you have no way of knowing whether they'll be sitting staring at the front door when you load into the cell. If nobody's home, there's no need to sneak around. And even if the homeowner comes back and interrupts your burglary, they'll just talk sternly to you before you get into any trouble.

Supposing the most 'thrilling' scenario - you arrive in a house and someone is home, but *not* looking straight at the door when you enter - you still have to deal with the problem that Skyrim isn't built like a Thief or Dishonored game, with shadows, mantling, NPC subdual, stealth tools, etc.... you're pretty much in a well-lit room and either your Sneak is so high that it doesn't matter or you're caught.

If you're playing a roguish character who wants thrilling, IMO it's much better to attempt to ghost through dungeons. That won't work a lot of the time, but at least most of the dungeons are designed for stealth a good deal better than your average NPC's house.

Just to take a step back from the immersion of role-playing, I think quest lines like the Thief's Guild serve as training mechanisms:

* They provide a structured way for the player to explore the world and get a sense of how things work

* They teach you how a certain type of character can specialize in a subset of skills and thrive

* They help you role play by forcing you out of your comfort zone (I was really reluctant about doing Dark Brotherhood or Dawnguard stuff, but enjoyed them once I took the plunge)

This makes for a rich gaming experience as opposed to chopping wood mindlessly. And by the way, speaking as a person who has chopped wood, it takes way more than an axe. The axe in the game is for cutting lumber, not splitting firewood. It can be use for splitting firewood but only on relatively straight grained sections of narrow limbs (just like the ones in the animation). The rest of the tree, like the trunk or joints, require splitters and sledge hammers. It is tough and slow work. I believe the preferred tool for this type of work is a hydraulic press which splits small pieces after they've been chainsawed to size.

To be honest, the more exciting part is having a pickpocket skill of 20 to 25 with the minimal perk, breaking into a house at 2:00 am hoping the mark will be in bed asleep, and picking their pocket. There actually ARE fairly nice things occasionally that you can get that way. Especially from that creep Nazim (spl?) and sometimes one of the old lady. if they catch you pickpocketing them and trespassing, They will almost always get a guard in your face immediately even if they attack you... and life gets very interesting if you refuse to surrender, eh?

Turning to a life of crime isn't always about desperation. Often it can be a matter of skills - find something you're really good at and continue to do it. Others do it for the sheer thrill of being a thief. And what if just barely surviving day-to-day is not your ideal? Well, becoming a thief could ensure your retirement.

As with any job in this world or in Nirn, there are associated risks. However, like any risky job, there are usually big rewards at the end if you make it through.

As for the abundance of loot in the game world, you're now talking about gameplay vs. lore concept. And if you think about it, the loot system is pretty messed up because finding great loot you can sell at a high price imo wouldn't be that often in a more "real" setting. If the "real" world had so much of this loot, you would eventually see a huge deflation of value for your loot because you would be flooding the market with it.

Guildmaster Armor looks great. Delvin Malory is right up there with the Spectral Assassin in the voice actor department. Fences, well, if you're theiving, then fences.