I wasn't imposing, I was suggesting that the assumption that Redguards WERE great horseman was unfounded.

And it's hardly wacky. I can't see that horses are as honourable as fighting on your own two feet. Something any self respecting Redguard would take into account. And I totally agreed about the Bjoulsae River tribe, that was my point. I doubt that Redgaurds would be as suited as Bretons, as it's most certainly their forte, as it's been describe in the PGE. I think the PGE taken as Guidelines is fine, there's obviously things that aren't mentioned. But I also get a feeling the PGE is supposed to gives us a palette of elements of the culture, found in that province, that we have to use, to paint a more unified picture of Tamriel. Rather than adding in random elements, because we feel the comparison to real world suits it.



Basically. And thank you for clarifying that, I had gone to bed by then. But it's not so much the shared victory thing, as the fact that the Redguard in question wouldn't have completed the task off his own back, he would have had help. It's a personal thing again. Rather than socially perceived honour, he would question if he were capable without a horse and whether he was really honourable, in winning that fight.

EDIT: I think this is getting confusing because I am talking pretty much solely about combat. Although I do think that horses could be used for pack animals, and could also be effectively used for scouting ahead, for the nomadic tribes of Hammerfall fidnign thier next point of refuge. I still wouldn't say they have a very strong equestrian tradition. I would say it's there, but not to the extent, of being able to dub them effective horseman.

But Morrowind is separated. By a large mountain chain. The Velothi Mountains. Those are what stop all the creepy Morrowindian bug-creatures from venturing west into Cyrodiil and Skyrim and [censored] up their eco-systems. Coincidentally, they stop Skyrim/Cyrodiil creatures from going east.
And to the south there is the Black Marsh. Need I say more?



But why would he then use a sword? Any weapon at all? That is hardly honourable. I mean, if he does not kill his enemies with his bare hands, then he has help, right?
There is honour to be gained from being a good horseman, too. Just like being able to swing swords/fight with any weapon is, horsemanship is a feat that takes time to master.

I don't think anyone would consider using horses more "cheating" (in lack of better words) than sailing and using cannons. And they do both. Supposedly, don't they have the best sailors in the known world?

[EDIT: After reading your post more throughoutly, I realised this is what you said] Anyway, there is no way Redguards wouldn't use cavalry. They may not have the best cavalry in the world, but not using them at all for the soldier's "honour's" sake would be foolish.
Still, they are known for their skill in guerrilla warfare. In times where machine-guns and cars did not exist, and in open, arid areas such as Hammerfall where there probably wouldn't exist many thick forests/jungles, I would say horses would be a very important part of a hit-and-run tactic.
Together with archery, obviously.

We all know how good redguards are with the bow now....heh. Still I'm sure they used some form of projectiles. Slings, javalins, and the like. Even so, a hit and run tactic can still be accomplished by simply charging in, killing a few and waiting it out...until you get the jump on them again.

Well, I meant that in a kinda ironic way, saying that archery would fit the "ideal" medieval guerilla-guy, even though i never got the feeling Redguards are overly-archeric. And thus, it was supposed to point out that it might be the same thing with horses.
I realise the point might be quite hard to get through :foodndrink:

No, I am not denying the fact they may have used horses at all. I just don't feel it would be fair to class them as great horseman, as many seem to have done here, based on as little as I have based my argument against it.

No, this is also what I said, the fight would need to be equal for him to feel honourable, however if he killed a foe with his bare hands, that would indeed make him proud. But a horse, in a land of people without horses (after all they did not travel from Yokuda on horses) would be an unfair advantage.

If you had to fight someone, and you had to fight for honour, would you feel dishonourable, if you'd beaten them with asset over skill?

I feel honour can occasionally come before practicality to the Ra Gada, but for the most part Practicality > Honour but despite this there's a contradictory ethos of Skill > Asset. Because an asset isn't necessarily practical, while a skill is always practical. And an asset isn't always honourable (crests are honourable for example, but they aren't that applicable to unimperialised Redguards) and yet a skill is.

But once again, I can poke holes in my own argument, I just want to deter people from jumping on the "Redguards must be great horseman" bandwagon, because of either their landscape comparability to Arabia (which really isn't that significant or extensively comparable) or because of their practicality.

I can certainly imagine Redguards employing the use of horses, just probably not on the battlefield.

But we're not talking solely about combat, in fact, its not about combat at all, but there skill as possible horseman. Lets take a look at Hammefell shall we, and how the Redguards travel. First off, they don't use teleportation, because as race, the Ra'gada hate Tamrailic magicka. They are great seamen, but you cant use a boat to cross the vast deserts and plains of Hammerfell can you now, and what would you use if one was to be in a hurry? Horses of course. Despite the given fact that, for the nomads, horses would be essential, and thus, horsemanship among the tribal aspects of the Ra'Gada would make it very liable that they would train to be good horseman.

As for the honor thing. I havn't seen any cases of such a radical idea as to not use horses. And Villfarelse seems to make the a good point that, if not using a horse, why use a sword or other weapon that gives them an advantage over their opponents. Seems to me thats more of a nordic thing, stubborn pride is what it is, not honor issue.

And it is rather wacky

But if they are not in a hurry? I feel camels are a much better choice for civilian Redguards, at least as long as "getting there" is more important than "getting there fast". I can imagine outspred camel use in nomad culture too.
I actually can't deside what animal I believe would be most common for them in non-military situations, I don't think I know enough about real world "hammerfall-like-area" nomads. (And I do not plan to look it up right now either, so if anyone of you have that knowledge, please tell me)
Though if the culture of the nomads in question is militaristic, I can imagine horses being favored. Putting a spear in someone from a saddle is always more "comfortable" than doing the same on foot.

Velothi mountas don't run the whole boarder IIRC. And regardless even the huns passed through the carpathian mountains (though not very safely ). They just didn't stay there mostly because of the population there at the time.

Who is to say that horses have to originate somewhere outside of Morrowind anyway? Your assumption suggest just that.

The camels was my point, I really don't think they'd be using horses, I think camels would be their pack transport, and they would walk and lead camels, or if they rode camels, it would be about endurance. I suggested cmels earlier on, but desisted in continiuing, incase my poitn was dubbed wacky.

I defitnely envision them beign camel riders, rather than horseman. And if they are good seamen, why don't they build landsailers? Thye know how the wind works, they coudl easily put it to effect, if Tava would grant them some wind.

It;s not wacky by the way, I just don't think they are horseman. And Villfarelse broguht up that point and I promtply turned it around. Becuase blades are a respected part of Ra Gada culture infact they are a recognised part of every Redguards culture, whereas horses aren't.

By the way you say:



They didn't ride over from Yokuda on horses either. So your point once again is as unfounded as mine.

*sigh* okay, you said they didn't ride over on horses right? Well what was the point you were trying to make there? which has nothing to do with horses, and isn't even possible (riding over from Yokuda on horses), that was a completely irrelevant point. As for the landsailers, please, explain to me you plan to get a boat to sail through sand, wind alone isn't powerful enough to move a boat through sand, and why spend time on somthing like that when you can just use a horse (or camel), which is more practical?

And whats wacky (I think) is the crazy honor thing that makes no sense at all. Your right about there being no proof about them being great horseman, but theres also no proof, except for your opinion, that they would find using horses dishonorable. Your taking an extreme point of view about Ra'Gada honor, which is just as unfounded as anything else already said. All of this is just what we think anyway, right? I just thinks its a wacky idea that they would find using horses dishonorable. Also, whats the difference in using and riding camels than horses? Its not about honor, its about practicality, and using animals like horses (or camels, if you prefer so much) to ride, or fight upon?

Okay i thoghut you meant my opinion they aren't great horseman is wacky. That's fine, it's just that that eitehr way is an assumption.

One of my points backing that up was my admittedly strong views of Redguards norms.

The Redgaurd probably won't be great horseman as a cultural trait because they are NOT a nomadic people. Redgaurd does not equal Arab, not even close. The vast majority of Redgaurds live in massive coastal cities, and travel using boats. If your want to compare them to a RL cultue, they are the Swahili, massive naval trading cities, not Arabs, a nomadic culture from the middle of a desert. The nomads make up relatively little of the actual population.

The Dunmer do not ride horses either. They eat them. They ride giant insects that fly around. And the Velothi mountains reach from the coast to marsh, pretty much creating a barrier. And the Nords introduced horses during the First empire.

Thats why I specified I was talking about the nomads when it came to horsemanship. Now, to be fare, no, the majority don't live in coastal cities. Your massive costal cities consist of Sentinel (Forbear) Hegathe (Crown) Gilane (?) Taneth (Forbear) and Rihad, (Forbear). The majority of the Forbears live in these cities, most likly, while the Crowns live in the inland cities such as Skaven, Elinhir (Crown). In fact, there are more settlements inland than there are around the coast, which means the majority of their transportation can't be boats.

Edit: Sixteen major settlements inland, while only ten around the coast. These are just the major ones, not counting all the villages and townships inbetween though.

Where did you get those numbers? From what I saw in the PGE, 6 out of 9 major cities are on the coast (Sentinal, Hegathe, Gilane, Tabeth, Stros M'Kai and Rihad), and one more is on the Bjoulse River (Dragonstar). The other two major cities seem to be in the mountains (Skaven and Elihir). I'm not sure where Sutch is supposed to be anymore.

A desert towns don't just exist. They are usually on the coast, or on bodies of water, so they would use boats. In a largely cosmopolitan culture, the nomads don't really play a large part in the overall culture. Sure, they may be good horseman, but that doesn't really mean that it is part of the culture overall. It's like sayin the Romans were good horseman, because they did use a cavalry. We already pointed out that it is not true. And the nomads of the Alik'r may be like the Bedouin of the Sahara, not using horses in favor of camels.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j76/Titus-lord/ToppographyTamrail.jpg here for one, then http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j76/Titus-lord/map_hf_names.jpg for another.

The nomads play as big apart of their culture as the civilized portions do, if not more so, as they still speak in Yoku, which most of the civilized Ra'Gada no longer speak and maintain some strong traditional ties to original Ra'Gada culture, and again, I NEVER said it was part of their overall culture, I was specificly talking about the nomads as horseman, and the if you want to draw comparisons to real life then there just as likely to use horses like many other Arabian cultures.

Edit: And Dragonstar isn't near the river, its further inland.

Lord Tidus, can I ask you, why woudl you say that Redguards are great horseman and that Imperials aren't when both of the travellign they would do (we are assumign in Hammerfall they have horses) is on horeback, and yet, you don't consider Imperials better horseman?

I don't think you've given a reason yet for believeing that. Or were you just debating against my point?

Eitehr way, I feel this is coming to a close, but that was interesting. Now I ened to go an derail another thread. By the way, I was thinking a sandsailing device would be possible, when I said sailing on the land coudl be possible.

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/3294/redguardhorsemanok0.jpg

Except that a large part of their population ARE Nomads...except that part.

Just because you may eat horses doesn't mean you don't ride them. Go read the earlier parts of the thread. That is explained to you.

Velothi mountains acting as a barrier suggest that the origin of horses is somewhere west of Morrowind. But we have no sources for such a thing. Yet when we look at the Real Barenziah for example we learn that horses are even in Mournhold and all throughout main land Morrowind. They talk about carriages at least once.

The nords introduced horses during the first empire? What is your proof of that?

I'd be glad to answer, this has been indeed a fun debate

I'm still not saying that they are great horseman, I'm saying that the nomads of the province would have (most likely, but not for sure) a strong horse culture, which chance would have it that they would have good horseman. Also, the lack of other real forms of transportation, aside from camels that is, acrossed the province. Ra'Gada don't like magicka, and they aren't the most innovative race, with the exception of Sentinels cannons, but thats only Sentinel, so I wouldn't see them coming up with no sandsailing vehicle.

Now the Imperials homeland isn't quite best suited for horses. Cyrodiil, if we go by lore description (which are the only ones I'll accept, damn OB) Cyrodiil is largly covered in a tropical type rain forests in the north with swamps and good stuff like that in south. Now there are of cource some open area for raising crops and stuff, but, there aren't plains or enough open area's (from descriptions I've read) for horses to flourish, and thus, decreasing the chances of horse breeding and riding becoming an important factor in Imperial society. Hammerfell, however, does have open plain's in the east, and then there's the Alik'r as well.



I remember specifically reading that in a book in Morrowind, about horses being introduced to Morrowind during the first empire. I don't remember which one it was, but it said the nords brought horses over from Skyrim and introduced them to the people of Morrowind. During the resistance is when its said Dunmer got a taste for horse flesh, from eating the dead horses off of fallen nordic warriors.

Dres Dunmer as previously stated are probably the best. Dunmer are good breeders too. Cheydinhal Black horses are a relative of Dres Horses, i Believe

It's nice to see that people keep fantasizing about the Dunmer use of horses when the giant bugs are all prevalent. The fastest horses might come from Cheydenhall but Cheydenhall is still an Imperial city and having been exposed to Imperial culture for a long time the Dunmer there are nothing like the Tribunal traditionalist from Morrowind. If the Dunmer are the one's doing the breeding in the first place.



You say that but you don't seem to realize that the division of horse breeds, with one for each city is just as artificial? Every city has one Horse, one Temple, one Count, one building style, ect. While none of the latter are really justified by lore, it's no stretch to say that the only reason the Black Horses ended up in Cheydenhall is by chance.

Agreed, I pretty much disregard everything but the events in OB. Even some bits of the events I disregard too.

Anyway, I think you'll find many horses (especially the less agile like those found in Oblivion) are more than capaable of crossing Jungle Terrain.

The only reason I find it so difficult to believe that Redguards use horses really, is becuase the same argument you sue can be applied to about any region. The onyl difference is magicka, and to be honest, unless they want to travel from town to town, or mark and recall (for tha average inhabitant, obviosuly powerful mages can do whatever), it's kind of useless, and horses are still needed to actually get to specific places.

And that assumption fo yours is based on real worlod elements, now woudl you not agree, that if the real world elements of camel would be taken into accoutn the rather barren dusty (sometimes sandy and unstable) surface of Hammerfalls plains would be better suited for a camel.

I still more than recognise you opinion, I just feel by the 'palette' the PGE gives, if these fast horses, or horses at all were a part of travelling the Alik'r then would it not be mentioned. The whole point of beign a Nomad, is to be able to travel slowly with your home, and not need to use conventional transport, it's just a problem of burden.

Anyway, this is gonna be my last post, and I am intersted in what you ahev to say, but I ahve to stop somehwere, haha.

I'm actually very curious on why you would do that?

Keep your sarcasm for you.

It seems your knowledge of horses and their uses is very limited so I will try my best to inform you.

Giant wasps and what not are good for buzzing around but when you need to defend a wide open terrain such as the Dashaan plains, horses are what you need. See with the bugs you can't show a bow from them because the massive wind generated by them. You can't hold a lance and charge into an enemy line. You can't transport many things with bugs that you can with horses. Horses are probably easier to tame and smarter and probably a lot easier to house then a giant wasp.

Since when do you need to be an Imperialist or Tribunal Traditionalist to be good with horses? This is what is called a red herring, one of several logical fallacies. This point is out of context and has nothing to do with the topic.

Who are you say that the division of horse breeds is artifical? You are taking liberty in how lore is presented via the game and making your mind up about it, but I come in here with logical points and even some lore suggesting the Dres uses horses (The Real Barenziah) and you make some sarcastic pot shot at me?

Sorry but so far your only point has be "nu-hu" and your limited understanding of basic horse us both military and civilian renders your opinion an interesting foot note at best, but more realistically moot.

Agree or disagree nobody needs your attitude and I was hoping we could all just exchange some opinions without the likes of you getting snappy at any of us because perhaps we'd like to express some possibilities. I've heard stories about you and your crew and so far everything said has been true. Kind of sad.

What giant wasps?

And what about dark elves riding guars?

What sarcasm? He was pretty frank for most his post, except the first sentence.

Horse in TES aren't used for anything but getting around. In Oblivion, you had to get off the horse to fight. There is a reason for this

Real world physics don't really apply. We have images of Dres Dunmer fighting on the wasps, using both spears and bows, so it must work. And can a horse carry more than a silt strider? Those things are massive. And the thing the taming thing is that you can't just say that horses are easier to tamer and smarter than a fictional creature, that we don't have that information for and we definately don't have RL comparisons.

So you're saying a people's culture has nothing to do with a cultural trait? Sure the Redgaurd culturally dislike magic, but as a culture are amazing at it.

Well, you have also thrown all the opposing lore out the window, and a lot of logic as well. The Dunmer don't use horses in Morrowind. And even if it wasn't artificial, the Dunmer in Cheydenal is exactly that, in Cheydenhal and adjusted to Imperial culture. Saying that one Dunmer is good at breeding horse, so all of them must be is like saying a New Yorker living in the Pampas for years is really good at riding horses, so all New Yorkers still in NYC are good at riding horses. And that's only if the horses thing isn't gameplay mechanics, which I also think it is.

Actually, many people have given reasons why the Dunmer don't use horses. The use for food, the fact that they are non-native, many alternatives to horse to use instead, such as gaur, silt striders, the wasps. I don't understand where you get the opinion that he doesn't understand anything about horses?


There is no need to attack him personally. He puts out points that hurt your idea (which only you seem to hold in here right now) and you attack him personally. That's not nice.