Yes, I believe in such discourse, it's called an argumentum ad hominem. Really, "stories about you and your crew"? I don't understand how beating someone's iniquity is suddenly odd.

A bow wouldn't be a very bright idea, true, but one wouldn't actually need to charge the enemy line if you can http://www.imperial-library.info/rgbooks/page.shtml?16.
Anyway, there would be other bugs to ride, probably, if one fight's onland. As bugs generally have some kind of shell or exoskeleton, I think they would be preferable to "soft-skinned" horses, if they are able to run fast enough.
And yes, you can transport many things with bugs. Pack guars, for example (granted, they aren't bugs, so I guess that should be changed to Morrowindian creatures. That goes for the whole argument.) You want to use wagons? You could probably just "tie" one to the guar. Or any other, hardy creature.
As for bugs not being intelligent, one can't really tell if bugs (or any other creature) would be dumber (or smarter) than horses. But there is always command spells. Though to train all bug-cavalry in such might be too expensive and complicated to be profitable.


Stories about proweler and "his crew"? What does people say?

Except his first sentence where he basically talks down to everyone that disagrees with him. It's un needed.



Game mechanics. Oh come on are you serious with this one?



There are basic real world physics such as wind that do apply. And show me where Dres are fighting on wasps with bows. I'm not sure they fought on wasps with spears either but some other insect. Maybe they did fight on wasps with spears, but on bows in no way. Regardless there is adifference between using a spear on a wasp and a lance on a horse. The wasp variant is relegated to poking and maybe slashing. With the horse you ride into the enemy with the full weight and just break people.

We know insects aren't smart and ever tamed. It's kind of a moot point. But regardless my point about horses being easier to house stands. Camels are better for transporting things too but horses were still used. Pack mules are also better too. Still use horses.




No if you can read my comment and just copy and paste it. That's what I said. I didn't say culture has nothing to do with cultural trait. I'm over here, you're hitting a strawman.




What opposing lore? What lore opposes dunmer using horses?

The Dunmer DO use horses in Morrowind. Read the Real Barenziah. How many times do I have to repeat that? And there is even that book about the war with Morrowind and the Remen Empire. Vivec himself and his commanders are riding horses IIRC.

I didn't say all Dunmer are good at breeding horses. I'd love it if you could stop reading what you think I say and actually pay attention to my words. I refered specifically to the Dres on the Dashaan plain...several times. Please try to pay attention to all my words. It's very irriitating to repeat myself when the information is already stated by me previously.

Many thanks.



My culture uses horses for food too but guess what? Horses are a very big part of our history. Some of the best cavalry in the world comes from that region.

The only person that has any credibility in saying horses are non native is Lord Tidus and even he did not link us to any specific source.




Sorry if someone is going to be rude to me, they will be let known of how I feel about it. Especially coming from people on a video game forum about video game lore. I mean come on grow up. He doesn't need to act the way he did. And i've noticed many people on the lore forum are very full of themselves. For what? I don't know. I'm just asking for mutual respect.

Again you can only stab from the air. You can't break up an enemy formation with that. And honestly if you just had a row of crossbowmen shooting heavy crossbow bolts the insect would be ripped to pieces. A better alternative would be mounted cavalry with a lance driving into an enemy line.

I alraedy gave examples of situations where people have alternatives to transporting and yet all I have to do is point to the Real Barenziah.

Stories that don't need to be aired out here because it isn't the time or the place.

Mmm...you too. Get a backbone.

I'm just wondering why in the [censored] people would argue over who has the best horse culture. It's a game and since it really doesn't specify what race is, use some imagination and make one up yourself. If you like the Redguards, then make them have a kick ass calvary. If Bretons are what tickles your fancy, then there ya go.

Me too what? And get a backbone meaning what?

Full sentences ftw

Get a backbone means don't act somewhat dramatic just because someone decides to withhold all the niceties because they argued against your idea. It's as if you got hurt...on the Internet...by anonymous people.

Anyway, I'm just stalling time and getting this OT on purpose. So...whatev.

Backbone is actually used as a term to show that someone is standing up for themselves. I think what you meant to use is "tougher skin."

But anyway no i'm not hurt by prowler's lack of tact but i'm not going to put up with it either. I don't care if he was argueing for me. He needs to keep the angst on his side of the computer screen.

Proweler? Angst?

:rofl:

Tougher skin, backbone...whatever to keep you from focusing on that angst.

Nah, I don't believe you did hurt. It's Internet drama nonetheless. It's not as if this subforum is the worst when it comes treating you badly.

And as I said, I'm stalling. And still am. Wow.

Personally, all this talk about horses and Dunmer seem not to be providing any gems of lore. Some dunmer use horses, fine. Some dunmer don't use horses. As fine. Not that it matters anyway.

We're in agreement.

:rofl

A Backbone is also a term in the computer world for lets say all the routes and connections that makes up the Internet.

Horses are not widely used in Morrowind due to its rocky, mountainous nature and due to the cuisine of the Dunmer. Not only do the Dunmer use the flying insects, but also ground insects (such as http://www.elderscrolls.com/images/creatures/mw_04CRB.jpg).

Dashaan plaines.

Eating horses doesn't mean you don't use them, my culture has done it for thousands of years.

Insects have their place horses have theirs.

Has no one read The Real Barenziah? I thought it was a pretty popular book so i'm curious.

Horses probably aren't native. There is also little mention of an equestrian tradition or any associated customs.

But, that doesn't mean it's like this:

Yes, it was joke, and why do Dunmer use the exact same battle tactics as people in RL when they have alternatives? What you're basically saying is that everyone everywhere should use horses, because you can't have a battle without them. Why is a full calvary charge always the tactics that are used. I'm sure Morrowind has developed tactics good for it's climate, fauna, and culture. You basically want to ignore all these and say that the horse charge is better. I can name a completely random tactic that might work with the wasps. Keep mainly infantry, but use the wasps to flank and skirmish the rears. Or is that not as good as a calvary charge.

Actually, throughout history, most stationary cultures use mules much more often than horses. And camels are used more in the deserts than horses. Horses are used for battle more than the others, but not all cultures used horses for battle or at all.

You said that it doesn't matter if the Dunmer in Cheydinhal was naturalized in the Empire, and that he still represents Dunmer culture. If I'm wrong, tell me.

I guess you can imagine that horses are used in Morrowind. I guess lack of evidence does not actually mean they don't actually exist, even if we have been to Morrowind, and the creators said that they don't use horses. But, don't try to convince us, since that is just what you want to believe. You are grasping on to threads of logic and lore to try to convice everyone else, and then attack us for not agreeing.

The Real Barenziah does have horses, but used in Skyrim, where we know there are horses, and Cyrodiil, ditto. Not in Morrowind. 2920 used the word gallop, but that does not specifically mean "horse."

OK. Yet, all the times we hear about the Dres of the Dashaan plain, they don't have horses. They are the ones using the wasps in the Redgaurd comic. And those are plantations, which have no need for horses.

This arguement would be better if I knew what region you were from. But horses are probably native, not a rarity, like in Morrowind. But if you make an arguement with background info, make sure we know the background info.

So, basically, your saying that you are going to ignore everything everyone else said. I would trust Prowler, as he is the Librarian of TIL, but apparantly he is just a jerk that likes to attack people because of his angst.


You've called us illogical, claimed we ignore lore, said that a lore master is just full of angst, say that none of us have credibility, attacked people personally, and you are mad that someone uses a little sarcasm.

It is. One shouldn't get all worked up over it, though, because that's the point. Ignore it. Wait some time before answering. That's what I do when to rise above other people's comments.


They do have pack guars. Obviously, both guars and silt striders have been domesticated and are controlled by some means, whether they're actually tamed or just commanded.


I think heavy crossbows would be just as effective against cavalry charging in on you. Both bows and crossbows could be devastating to cavalry if used at the right moment. If you listen to self-proclaimed all-knower (well, he actually knows a lot :angel:) Jan Guillou to-be-Sweden won a couple of battle against Supreme-Overpower-Denmark using such tactics (and thus became indipendant and a real country. Yeaa, right :rolleyes:).

Anyway. Let's go all hypothetical fan fiction on this one, for the sake of debate. If there existed an insect in Morrowind that could serve as heavy cavalry "steeds", wouldn't the use of those be preferable? They would probably allready have some kind of shell/exoskeleton, so they wouldn't need to be as heavy armoured. Since they are native to Morrowind, they would be able to survive better in the more unfriendly environments. What do you think? :foodndrink:

EDIT: Changed some parts that I thought were no longer significant.

You suggested that the function of a wasp is so great that horses are irrelevant. I simply gave a situation where this is not the case. That's all.

I'm pretty sure Barenziah rides a carriage through Mournhold drawn by horses.




Exactly but even though they have alternatives they still used horses. My point is that Dunmer use horses and the Morrowind fauna.




I don't see what aspect of Imperial culture (a jungle filled province) would influence Dunmer in Cheydinhal to rairse horses. It makes much more sense that Dunmer from Morrowind, a place that actually has plains, brought the horse breed over. Or are you suggesting that horses roam jungles now? Maybe I didn't read something? I don't know.




Real Barenziah. Read it.

Creators were refering to Vvardenfell when they spoke of horses. It was just a cop out excuse regardless.

I've attacked you for not agreeing? And you use "us"? Who is this "us" I have attacked? Please don't try to turn this into a popularity contest situation.




Used in Mournhold as well.

In 2940 i'm pretty sure they used horses. And even if they just used galopped, what other animal would you would "gallop"?




Hardly hear anything about Dres in general. The lore in TES is paper thin in some areas so I don't think this stands as much of a point. Plus the comic showed the southern swampy area of Dres holdings.




I'm going to ignore everything everyone else said that has no relevance yes.

Okay you can trust whoever you want. Not my place to do anything about that.

I didn't say he was a jerk, I think the term I used was tactless or a variant of that. Stop putting words in my mouth.




Who is this "us" you keep refering to? Can you please quote individually case by case where i've said all those things so we could have some context and not just your revision of the situation? Thanks.

I simply said his sarcasm should be kept for himself. And then others chimed in (oh crap there goes the forum again) continuing the conversation on that line.




True.




The difference between using wasps in the air to poke and heavy cavalry to smash a line is that heavy cavalry can get in on the archers/crossbows and continue to fight in hand to hand at close range crushing softer armored archer/crossbow soldiers. With a wasp you're just floating around poking downward, plus your formation is not as tight and there for not as effective. The wasps would work better IMO as flanker, harrassers working with infantry. But that's a different topic.

If the Dunmer had something that moved as fast and was as agile as a horse, they'd probably use it. But so far we just have wasps and guars. The horse still fits in a role.

Your intimate knowledge of the tactics and anatomy of beasts whose existence and use is several shades of obscurity past hypothetical is surprising. Do you have access to the Elder Scrolls?

There's a time and a place for wild conjecture and generalization, so long as we keep it in perspective. Which could go for the whole topic.

It isn't very hard to figure out that wasps could not form as tight as a formation as horses. They need room to fly. And you could not do a "frontal lance charge' with a wasp unless you were fighting really tall people, say about 15 feet tall.

The startling wealth of assumptions in your post rivals the biodiversity of Costa Rica, and not just because I wanted say "biodiversity of Costa Rica."

Dunmer might use horses every once in while, but probably not very often. Horses are not native, and not really fit for the competition in Morrowind. Why would a people use a foreign animal that is evolved for another ecosystem when you have plenty of native alternatives. Why can't gaur take the place of horses? Why can't silt striders? Why can't the wasps? I'm fine with you believing that there are horses because, there really isn't any evidense against them except circumstantail, but don't try to convince all of us because their is not evidence is unlikely. And no, I never suggested that horse roam jungles, just that Cyrodiil's connection to horses is proven, and Colovia isn't all jungle anyway. Plus, Cyrodiilic culture is heavily influenced by Nords, which use horses.

You are grasping at straws. Gallop does not mean "horse" for example. In RL, zebras, mules, donkeys, cows, rhinocerouses, and elephants all "gallop". Royals may use horses, because they are rich, and may like the exoctic nature. You can believe what you want, but you won't convince anyone else.

As a matter of fact i've been specific to suggest only Dres, and only the Dres that live in the Dashaan plains that use horses. Not that every single one uses a horse.

I don't think we have enough information to say that horses are or are not native. Nothing has shown anything for or against that so far.

Guars, sild striders and wasps each have their own function as does a horse. Each has its place.

I'm not trying to convince anyone anymore then they are trying to convince me. Heck you believe what you want. It's just a game and i'm just shooting the [censored]. Waiting around the house to kill some time.

Okay if it wasn't horses that galloped what would you suggest that Vivec and his generals were using?