So of all the characters we've met in the Mojave, who do you think is the greatest hero of them all? Who has undeniably had a positive effect on their surroundings and proven to be of pure heart?

Keep in mind that a lot of the good and bad is subjective, so what I'm looking for are undeniably good acts on the part of the character. For example McNamara is undoubtedly a hero in the eyes of the Brotherhood of Steel, but is he a hero in general? Are his actions in interest of all people, or in the interest of only the Brotherhood?

Making a poll with a couple options that I think come to mind, but please don't be afraid to name someone not on the poll.

Keep in mind that when making your case, you're arguing the character's greatest potential. For example I put Raul on the list because not only does he have a history of vigilante justice, but he'll continue carrying about vigilante justice if he's encouraged to continue his gunslinging days.

As for the people on the poll, allow me to elaborate on some of the reasons they got listed:

1. Robert House - Responsible for "saving" New Vegas; it's thanks to him that the area isn't heavily irradiated and that it's not as broken down as it could've been, for example Hoover Dam might not stand if not for him.

2. Dr. Mobius - Dedicates his entire life to ensuring that the Think Tank, which he (rightly) believes to be a danger to themselves and others, don't learn of the outside world or escape; chooses to simply keep them ignorant to the outside world instead of just killing them off.

3. Julie Farkas - Head of what's arguably the most selfless group of people in all of New Vegas, providing medical assistance and technological aid to the people.

4. The King - Truly cares for his community and his beliefs to the point where he's willing to die in their defense, but is slow to anger and slow to aggression, and thus respects other groups and nations aswell.

5. Raul Tejada - Has and can continue to use his guns in defense of the weak and innocent. Bravely tracked a group of bandits that heavily outnumbered him in order to try and save a woman.

6. Doctor Henry - Focuses his life on trying to help people, trying to find a cure for the Nightkin Schitzophrenia

7. Neil - Stands a vigilant watch at the base of Black Mountain to warn all travelers of the dangers and redirect them to safer communities. If faced with a person he finds capable of solving the problem of Tabitha, he gladly offers his aid.

8. Marcus - Focuses his life on finding peace and equality on behalf of super mutants, tries to provide them with a safe haven to live in. Sent Neil to watch over Black Mountain.

9. Klamath Bob - Attempted to purchase Meansonofa[censored] from the NCR after realizing they tortured him, helps in the defense of Westside.

10. The Courier - Potentially saves California from being nuked, though many of his deeds can be just as bad as they are good.

11. The Enclave Remnants - Come out of "retirement" solely in the interest of redemption and helping people.

12. Cannibal Johnson - Spent a lifetime trying not to serve under an organization he felt was unjust as best he could, gladly tries to help the world the moment he gets a chance.

13. Elder McNamara - Responsible for saving the Mojave Brotherhood, keeps the Brotherhood far more peaceful than most other members would, potentially responsible for a proposition that both appeals to NCR and Brotherhood goals, providing peace between the two, keeping tech in the "right hands" while providing extra security for roads from raider groups.

14. Private Jeremy Watson - Simple private who took a risk to save his squad from an attack.

Kinda depressing how few people I could list that I felt offered "heroic" actions that were undeniably good in their action and intent.

Mr. House- Every other poll vote is wrong.

I would say no one is the greatest hero, as all of them have selfish and self-serving motives, to some extent.

Even Mr. House only saved New Vegas because of his idiotic, and narrow-minded, obsession with preserving it as he knew it, and not because he actually cared about the people living there.

They are all just people, who did things that happened to help the land in some way, that doesn't make them heroes, it just makes them people.

That's a hilariously silly logic. The greatest heroes are those who did things, not to be hailed as heroes, but because they held the interests of mankind at heart. Even if not every human, they held the progress and structure of mankind as important. Your logic is laughably 'lulz im so edgy' but fails to take into account motive.

House saved Vegas because it was a city he loved, but in the seven years he's been forth from the Lucky 38 he has rebuilt much of the Strip and will likely push outward once he pushes the NCR occupiers out of the region.

Personally I think Mobius 1-up's House in every way, shape and form.

House didn't care to save all of mankind, only New Vegas (and himself). The people of Vegas being saved was semi-consequential; he wanted Vegas to live, but with a detached care for the people living there. There wasn't anyone in particular he DID specifically care to save.

Dr. Mobius was part of a team looking to save America, at the very least. Their goal from the get-go was to defend their country and their people. And as he prevents the Think Tank from leaving, he's protecting EVERYONE.

House willingly chose to not let go of the world; for whatever reason, he was compelled to live on and keep trying to shape humanity. It's what he wanted.

Mobius didn't want to play babysitter for his friends; he never asked for this, it just happened. And despite not wanting this, he does it.

House will cut down anyone that gets in the way of his vision using brute force.

Mobius cannot bring himself to kill the Think Tank, even though doing so would take a load off his own shoulders and arguably be good for humanity. Despite how easy it'd be and how it'd help, he can't bring himself to do it.

House seems more obsessed. Why? We don't know. But Mobius? Mobius is truly selfless. He defends his friends to the end while simultaneously protecting everyone from what he agrees to be dangerous friends. And while House may have defended Vegas, Mobius is truly defending a LOT of people; the cut ending for the Think Tank suggests they'd single-handedly carve up the Core Region if they were let loose.

Personally, I think the Courier should be removed from the list, considering they'll be a "hero" regardless of their action (to those he/she favored).

Now, we're in a conundrum, because a few of those listed wouldn't have done a thing until the Courier came along and altered their typical day.

All said and done, my vote goes for Julie Farkas, because whether or not the Courier showed up didn't change her daily routine of truly helping people regardless of their loyalties. I'm betting she would have helped a Legion member if they had the opportunity to get to The Fort without being shot.

Runner-up: Marcus and Neil, and yes, they both have to be tied since they were doing the exact same thing: helping everyone as best their situation allowed.

I wouldn't necessarily say that "loving a city" is heroic, nor rebuilding Las Vegas to be either.

I decided to include the Courier simply because he's not an innocent white knight no matter HOW good you play him. You can imagine the most peaceful Courier possible, but he's still got a blood-stained past and he has to get blood on his hands through his travels.

In that sense, he definitely doesn't qualify for "most innocent character," but some might be willing to argue he only has blood on his hands because he dares to tackle the big problems, and that if people like, say, Julie Farkas walked the Courier's road, they'd have blood on their hands too, but part of what makes the Courier good is that he dares to make the tough calls and try to help humanity.

Your post is kind of moot seeing as the Think Tank chose to do the same thing as House, live on and not let go of their obsession. They're really not much better than House. AND considering how many technological and biologic horrors came from Big MT, I'd say that lessens their 'good' as a whole compared to House saving an entire region from nuclear bombardment.

I've gone through this argument with you before and I'm not going through it again.

Hero is not a word I usually associate with NV characters.

But I suppose it would have to be mobius who is most deserving of the title.

and none of those people did what they did because they held the interests of mankind at heart.

House especially cared nothing for the people of New Vegas, just the city itself, and his single-minded obsession over trying to maintain the past will do nothing but prove detrimental to himself, and the people in the cioty, by trying to fight a world that has long since moved on past him.

And truly, most people's actions, even the so called "heroes", aren't about having mankind's best interest in heart, but rather wanting to make the world better for themselves, and the people they care about, not humanity as a whole. even the founding fathers of America fail to qualify as "heroes" because they really didn't care about freeing the entire world from British oppression, or making sure EVERYONE was free or treated equally, only the people they cared about.

Hero is a word applied to people to parade them as paragons of humanity, better then everyone else, when in reality, their actions and motives were literally no different then anyone else's, their selfishness just happened to help more people then most other people's actions do.

I don't think that House himself would even accept the title of "Hero", I bet he doesn't see himself as one; I don't see him as heroic because everything he did was entirely self-serving.

I LOL'd at this. I just posted in the villain thread with this very reasoning.

How the hell is it moot? The dude is reluctantly stuck there defending the world from his friends for 200 years, unable to bring himself to simply kill them off so he can get a breather. He dedicates his LIFE to just keeping them oblivious to reality so that humanity doesn't have to suffer their heartless experiments. Nor is Mobius responsible for Cazadors, Nightstalkers or any of the other horrors humanity has to put up with thusfar.

House on the other hand has an obsession with progress that, to be quite frank, many New Vegas citizens would gladly do without. You can sit there and say "yeah but those idiots live in a dump or don't know how to bring about progress," but so what? They're happy in that dump, happy with being nothing but simple merchants/casino owners with no grand ambitions, and unhappy with all the things House's regime potentially forces upon them. There may be less progress without him, but since when does progress = everything?

Check the cut ending for if the Courier sided with the Think Tank. THAT'S what Mobius is saving humanity from.

Of course it is, but at the same time, he's clearly show he has the ambition to protect people. It's no different than the Enclave's hated but not so bad in retrospect plans. House may not want to slaughter the wastes, but the two share a common goal, to preserve the glories of the past to cut down the barbarity of the wastes and restore order and Pre-War comfort to the world. Only a fool or a moron would happily accept sand and desert as 'The future' when the past could easily be rebuilt if one applies effort. That's why in an odd sense, I find the Enclave as an entity a tragic character. It was a case of misguided actions for a good intentioned goal. House is the same way, he sees so much potential to rebuild and is trying to pull the world together as best he can.

Edit @ Longknife- It's all moot because had they all died off when they otherwise should have, Nightstalkers would not exist, nor Cazadore, nor the countless lobotomites and Mobius knew perfectly well how amoral their obsession with 'FOR SCIENCE!' could be. Is Mobius a good guy? Yes, but his 'Hero Points' drop tremendously because he could have easily prevented all this by just killing them all or letting them die as mortal coils.

Mr. House is the reason New Vegas still exists, and even if he's not selfless, he's really the last hope the Mojave has for a large (and needed) reform.

Inc "House is a selfish, cold bastard" posts.

Right......

Because pointing out that humans inherently selfish and self serving, and not these selfless being you so naively claim they are, makes me incapable of logic and reason? So treating people like they are, instead of as they are not, is illogical now?

Except he really isn't. House has no real future because he is Gatsby. He is a man who tries to reverse time for his own desires, and people like that always get destroyed by the world that is constantly moving ever beyond them.

You're entitled to your opinion there, but I for one am not going to fault a guy for trying to find another way to solve the problem aside from murder. Let alone a guy who spends 200 years playing security guard for humanity.

Yes, because arguing an inherently black or an inherently white moral slate is silly. Good and evil are illusions we tell ourselves so we can sleep at night, the same for government and order. It's a thinly veiled lie hiding the truth that what really matters is 'Do my actions affect the overall good of Mankind?' if yes these are favourable. The man who built the biggest robotics and computer technology industry before the War and saved the Vegas region from annihilation may not be selfless, but he has saved countless lives that were and the lives that could be in the region. To weigh things as 'good' or 'evil' are just judgementalism. True importance is 'who did this help?'

I guess this just becomes a notion of what you consider heroic, I consider sincerity and sacrifice heroic and I don't see the willing sacrifice in House or indeed the Enclave. It seems to me that House's current status is more a necessity than a sacrifice; it may seem pedantic but I just don't think House say it as a sacrifice to become what he has, whilst hat's certainly noble and a testemant to will-power a hero? I don't think so (it seems that the notion of a hero has been diluted ).

Now why I think that the Enclave Remnants are heroes (spoiler alert, that was my vote) is because it's entirely sacrifice. Their friends that unite from 30 year retirement, either for some atonement and wrong righting or, even more so, for revenge and what they likely consider justice for all their dead colleagues at Navarro. Neither directly benefits them, indeed it makes them targets of the NCR and Legate Lanius even when they helped them for nothing; it's the sacrifice to the greater ideal, more so with the retribution against the NCR, that I consider heroic.

I guess it's probably because I consider the pinnacle of heroism to be Lawrence Oates that shapes what I consider heroism.

what are you talking about? I am arguing against both of those things......

Everything I said has been "people are just people, not really good, and not really evil, they just are, and thus the paradigm of "hero" is inherently impossible because hero implies a state of pure selflessness that humans are incapable of being."

Heroism is like good and evil, it's a figment of the imagination we created in order to believe that some people are capable of being more then human, by moving beyond selfishness, and being selfless, and that we should strive to be like them.

Superman is a hero, because he is truly selfless, he does what he does simply to help people, but no living person is a hero, its impossible, because no one is that selfless.

F**K I forgot Randall Dean Clark.

Knew I missed someone...

A good choice, although we don't really "interact" with him enough to become connected to his character IMHO. The occasional holotape is enough to depress someone, when they find out his story, but I don't know if it can bring someone to call him their "hero".

I think you and I come from two different tracks of thought that both merge into the same station. Your attitude is more the simple 'Soldier's Grace', where as my opinion is 'Machiavellian choices help win the game.' But you also have to remember, the Remnants aren't The Enclave, just old soldiers. I'm not discounting them mind you, but they're no longer in the 'Game of Thrones' of the Wasteland, but House is. It takes more than simple actions to win the game of politics. Sometimes it takes intrigue and deception to win.

Ah, my apologies, I seem to have mistook you as arguing the 'good' and 'evil' train of thought I oft see floating around here.

Old sport, when it comes to appreciating realpolitik and the requirement for bad-tings to be done for (what one considers) good - I think I win. But I'm certainly not going to call it heroism.

As I say, my notion of heroism was defined when my uncle told me about the self-sacrifice of Captain Oates when I was probably about six; severely fatigued, starving, frostbitten and suffering with gangrene he walked out of the tent into the blizzard of the Antarctic and willing death so that his compatriots might survive without him slowing them down. That's been the benchmark of a hero for pretty much my whole life.