I absolutely love the perk but I find myself confused on one matter within it. The whole idea of the perk is a perk which favors weapons used in American military campaigns, past and present but by what I see they didn't include the Automatic Rifle or This Machine to it's list of guns.

You've got the M1911, you've got the Thompson SMG so where is the M1 Garand and the Browning Auto Rifle? All four were used pretty commonly in WWII but only half of them are affected by the perk.


It's not a complaint by any means, because I don't think This Machine necessarily NEEDS any more damage on top of what it's already got, but it was something that caught my eye when I saw the perk and the different weapons available to this point; it just felt that would round it out much better.

They also forgot the automatic rifle in the patch that made the automatics better so iam not suprised.
It's health is now ridiculously low and it is less accurate than the 12.7mm smg.
They really need to fix that.
Anyway iam looking forward to taking the perk to buff my assault carbine.

I thought it was more "do more damage with weak guns" (mostly), other than "military guns".

I might actually bother using a 9mm pistol now.

Probably going to make a 9mm specialist, myself, complete with The Professional.

Don't forget the scope.............it'd be a shame if you missed, after all.

I think they left this machine and the auto rifle off on purpose their already 2 of the best guns in the game and don't really need a damage bump like the other weapons listed could use to stay useful in the future dlc's.

I understand why they left this machine out, its a beast but autorifle isn't as powerfull and practical as it used to be.

Isn't the Automatic Rifle from Dead Money? They couldn't add it because it would mean HH would require DM because it is referencing something from it. So it is perfectly understandable why they didn't include it. It was just physically impossible.

However, with mods, it is easily doable. Obsidian has to make each DLC independent from one another. Modders do not.

It would be easy enough to have it affect a weapon from DM you just wouldn't have that weapon it wouldn't screw anything up DM wouldn't be required to play HH it would just add another weapon already affected by a perk. Its possible for a dlc to reference another dlc DM references loansome road in the ending slides and all that would be required for the perk to affect the auto rifle would be to add it to the list, thats wouldn't explain why this machine was unaffected since its in the vanilla game. Those two weapons were left off for balance the auto rifle is a tier 5 weapon increasing damage 25% would make it a game breakersince its already one of the most powerful weapons , this machine is a tier 4 but pretty close to the bes all around gun. I think the reason for the perk was to increase the useful life of some of the lower tier weapons and make them a viable option for use in the future dlcs.

You missed the point or fail to understand the technical limitations going on here.

I am not talking about story references, I am talking about code references. HH can not reference the gun in DM because there is no ID code to be referenced. As far as HH as an add-on is concerned, DM does not exist. So in order to add the gun to the list of guns the perk covers, HH would have to reference the gun from DM, and in order to do that, there must be a physical code for said gun. Doing so would make HH rely on DM to physically work else it would crash the game or crash when the perk was taken. Computers can not reference nothing, they must have a specific, valid target.

And as i said before, Obsidian has to make DLCs stand-alone from one another, where as Modders don't need to worry about that. Modders are on the receiving end of the line so they are free to make mods that make those kinds of changes as a "patch" type mod.

Yeah, Sawyer mentioned this in another thread, or maybe on Formsprings (?).
You seem pretty knowledgeable -- would this limitation be circumvented in the eventual GOTY version? I know F3 GOTY had it's DLC on a different disc, but if everything was on one disc for NV the Automatic could then be referenced, right?

I'm quite certain that they could've added a "IF reference not found THEN skip BAR damage increase" line to the perk, if they really wanted to.

But, guess it's just a matter of time before someone uploads a mod that includes the bar/garand weapons in the perk :teehee:

Possible, yes, but very unlikely. They would either need to make HH rely on DM, include a patching .esp (What modders can do), or merge all the DLCs into a single .esm.


The scripting language does not allow for blank references or dead-end references. They must all point to actual IDs present within the active file, and given the DLCs need to be independent, having a blank reference is impossible

BAR is allready a beast no need for more damage on that thing

Yeah they won't be able to apply to DM weapons like Echo said. They really didn't need it anyway since they we're top tier weapons and are strong anyway.

I'm really glad they added this perk because it basically makes all the cooler low tier weapons viable for practical use now.

Now they just need to make an Energy weapon equivilant and the universe will be at peace.

All you would need to do is put the Automatic Rifle in the .esm for HH. You don't need to place it in game world, just have it in the .esm. Or even better, patch all the new dlc weapons into the base game .esm so you could include them on the form lists for all the perks. That's what happens with perks like this. There is a form list that the perk references to check if the weapon currently equipped fits the perk criteria. If it does, the perk kicks in. All that needs to happen is the weapon model, id# included, needs to be in the .esm that the perk form list is in. (That is, if I understand this stuff correctly.)

-Gunny out.

I don't think they can patch the .esm on consoles I'm pretty sure I read somewhere thats why certain issues couldn't be fixed via a patch.

Well, I suppose that makes sense. Sorry for my unintended PC bias. I forgot there's billions of folks that don't have the .esms on a hard drive. They *could* do it for PC though.

-gunny out.

I remember Josh Sawyer stating that they can not patch the DLC's. Something to do with legal restrictions on XBOX/PS.

But, yes PC players can do it.

I'm not very knowledgeable about these matters but could they just create a debug room in HH not accessible by the player that has a copy of all the items in Dead Money?

I'm really disappointed with the Automatic Rifle, it used to be completely beast. I was doing 76 dam and ~550 DPS with JSP rounds, then JSP got nerfed, they left it out of the general automatic accuracy increase and also left it out of the Grunt perk. I could have about ~700 DPS but instead I'm all the way down to 455 and less accurate than the 12.7 mm submachine gun...The Automatic Rifle also decays ridiculously fast with the JSP rounds. This was my favorite gun for a while but I'm retiring it unless it gets boosted back to where it belongs.

I'm still contemplating if I should take the grunt perk. If I do take it, it will probably at the much higher levels like 36-40.

I was raising my gun skills for future use with a mini-gun....but the perk seems so tempting.

and you don't think that maybe 700DPS would be just a little bit game-breaking? There's almost nothing I can't kill comfortably with a 10mm pistol.

I've got to agree none of the top tier weapons need to be boosted any higher than they are otherwise it would make them game breakers the high spread and low healty along with frequent reloading are what keep the auto rifle from becoming too powerful.

I completely agree it would be game breaking, New Vegas is extremely easy, I did a VH/HC, No HUD, No BGM, no companion, and 1 arm tied behind my back(only 1 handed weapons) play through and it had a little more tension but was still fairly easy.

But to me but it just doesn't make sense that this gun has been left so far back in the dust compared other automatics. It's slower firing and fires a .308 it should have better accuracy than other automatics at least. The CND added to JSP was enough imo to discourage constant use due to how expensive it is to run now. It can only fire about 600 rounds before breaking which is pretty rough for an expensive automatic. Ah well there are lots of great weapons to use it's just a waste to see this gun lose most of it's utility.

To both of you.


No they can NOT do this because the gun in HH would have a different ID then the one in DM thanks to something called Load Order.

Example:
Sayyou have both DLCs, your Load Order should be similar to this
- FalloutNV.esm
- DeadMoney.esm
- HonestHearts.esm

Now lets way the ID of the gun in DM is XX000055. The XX is representative of where the file is loaded. In this case, DM is loaded second, giving the prefix of 01, so the ID will be 01000055.

If they added the gun into HH, it would take the same ID of XX000055 (Probably not however) and given the load position of HH would get the prefix of 02, making the ID of the gun 02000055.

As you can see, their ID are different and as such CAN NOT be referenced between one another. The game would consider the gun in HH as a 100% completely different item then the one in DM regardless of how identical their mesh or stats are.

As i said. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO MAKE THE AUTOMATIC RIFLE INCLUDED IN THE PERK. Modders are on the receiving end so they can create such a patch to make the gun covered in the perk, but Obsidian can not do to havint to make DLCs independent.