I agree with you.. I am at fault of replying to 2 different post on the same reply

excellent idea!!!!!!!

Thanks for correcting my grammar and explaining to me that you didnt 'intent' to be funny.

I think you misunderstood the point. I of all people dont want a TES-GTA game. I dont want there to be 6 stars that conribute to how 'wanted' you are. I want the system to stay mostly the same, but give stronger repercussions for your actions.

You bring up OB's system and that the system is the way it is for a reason. I dont want to change that system, and nothing about what is suggested conflicts with that. But in OB, regardless of whether you stole a 1 septim ring or killed the entire Imperial Guard you were always looked at as the same, and nothing changed....for the most part. Having a 'easy way out' as you suggest is my main gripe about the previous system. Regardless of whether I was a petty theif or a mass murderer, all I had to do was pay a fine and maybe go to jail. It was ridiculous.

And Im not sure why stealth keeps getting brought up....I never mentioned anything about this idea relating to stealthy characters. The idea is a crime based system, and doesnt have much to do with being stealthy and not getting caught. These ideas are for once the cat is out of the bag, and you already have the bounty.

No, I actually agree with you. Nobody should know that you did bad things in the next town over, at least not immideatly.

Also, the Death Warrent seems like a bad idea especially at half the fine for murder.

How about after rackng up so much money on your head, the Morag Tong will get a Writ of Assassination for you, and you have to go though a mini-quest to fake your death and rename your character to completely clear the bounty. You have to pay a fine each time for the service, because new documents must be forged for you each time.

I dont mind the idea of separate bounties for different regions, if its added in a logical way.

Please read the OP. The bounty amounts that I list are examples, not real numbers. Considering that no one knows how bounties will work in Skyrim, I decided to use these numbers as examples so you could get a general idea of what Im talking about. And for the record, we dont know what the bounty for murder will be in Skyrim.....It could be 500, could be 1000, or it could be 50. We just dont know. Either way, dont take the numbers I posted as the exact amounts.

Oh, and be careful mentioning the MT in Skyrim. Next thing you know people will all be debating about how they were destroyed and so on. It becomes a big mess.

Are they dead? I know they're old, but I figure they could survive just as easily as the other dunmer groups might. It'd be a shame if they did, they are the Psijic Order to the Dark Brotherhood's Guild of Mages. A strict group that follows their teachings to the word, and then the dissenting organization.

Agreed.

Who knows, its debated heavily each way. Regardless of history and lore though, no one can defenitely rule it out as a possibility.....and of all places and times a civil war in Skyrim seems like a fitting environment to bring them back.

I wouldnt mind seeing them. I always said there should be DB and MT, and you have to choose which you want to overtake the other. You have the legal, morally correct assasination style, or the secretive, underground style. I like both, so wouldnt mind trying different routes on different play throughts. Thats just me though.

Anyway, lets stay on topic lol. Lord knows I dont want this to become another MT debate....I already have one of those threads. :wink_smile:
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1172132-morag-tong-vs-dark-brotherhood/page__p__17290416__fromsearch__1#entry17290416

I like the idea of getting to a point where jail is no longer an option, and guards will just look to kill you, and your only option is to look for someone who can bribe. This could be so for really high murder bounties.

Morrowind had that. You were given the death sentence at a bounty of 5000. You had to be in the thieve's guild to get rid of that

I like Proditus's ideas. They are basically the same as the OP but with a lot more detail and numbers that make a tad more sense. I know that the OP numbers were just examples but I think 5000 is a decent amount to get cut off of surrendering (being that it is the equivalent of 5 murders). Of course there should always be a way to get the bounty down, whether it be through depreciation or other means such as bribing/threatening a nobleman or using the Thieve's Guild or Dark Brotherhood. One thing that I haven't seen on this thread is on how the game will actually decide how the bounty is applied. On this point I would like to comment on crime multipliers and the infamous Psychic Guards.

Last things first, let's discuss psychic guards and crime reporting in general. If you came across an Imperial Guard walking alone in the woods and killed him while undetected with one shot you would get no fine in Oblivion. However, if you don't kill him in the first shot you automatically get an assault charge. But what if you resisted arrest and killed the guard, still with no one else seeing you? Too bad, you still have the fine. The way I see it, it should be much more forgiving. It all revolves around a character's Responsibility level.

The Responsibility of an NPC determines the how they react to crime. An NPC with less than 30 Responsibility will commit crimes, such as the City Swimmer. Which was really cool, but you didn't see it often. On the contrary, anything with a high Responsibility can and will report a crime. The problem is, anyone with too high a value can report crimes directly. Meaning that the person you attacked all alone in the wilderness was able to somehow report your crime right away. That is a definite thing to fix. Another thing to fix is that animals had responsibility, and it was usually set too high. A horse could report itself stolen, or even report a murder of a Imperial Legion soldier riding it, even if you got him in one shot. If that isn't broken, I don't know what is.

Another thing on that note is that if there was 4 civilians and a guard in an inn in the middle of nowhere, and you killed them all, you would likely walk out with a 5000+ bounty. But there were no witnesses left. How does anyone know it was you? It should go like this:

You lunge out of the shadows and kill one of the civilians. Immediately people grab their weapons and the guard tries to apprehend you (+1000 bounty). You resist arrest and attack the guard. The bartender takes a swing at you and you run him through for it (+1000 bounty). You back your way upstairs, hoping to lure them into a "fatal funnel". You slay one, then another (+2000 bounty). It's just you and the guard left. He approaches you warily, then charges. With one sweep of your blade you snuff out his life. (+1000 bounty). You have 5000 bounty and the battle is over. The game now checks a few things. Who all detected the player while he was fighting? Did anyone report the crimes? If so, add the person the NPC reported the crime to the list of people to check. Did any of these people survive? If no, there are no witnesses and the player's bounty goes back down to 0.

In a time without advanced communications and crime solving techniques, it should be MUCH easier to get away with crimes, even big ones like murder if you leave no witnesses. But now let's talk about crime multipliers. In Oblivion there were faction crime multipliers where if you joined Faction X, your bounty for crimes would be multiplied by that number. I can't think of a single time it is used in Oblivion though. What would be interesting (and more realistic imo) is if you got a higher or lower bounty depending on who you killed. Because not too many people will notice a beggar disappearing (Mafia assassin Richard "The Ice Man" Kuklinski honed his skills in murder by killing dozens of homeless vagrants around NYC and the surrounding area. Many of the deaths were not even investigated), and if you went after someone like a nobleman that should be instant 2000+ bounty.

In summation no psychic guards, not witnesses = no bounty, and how much you get charged should depend on who you committed an offense against.

I like the idea and I agree with Proditus on everything as well, his gold gaps between bounty levels are especially good.

Oh and and since we're on bounties: living as a complete outlaw should be a viable way to play the game, in TES1-4, once you have a big bounty you're cut off from all cities, stores and many quests. Which pretty much forces you to pay the fine.

Small towns (4-5 houses) shouldn't care about bounty, they might be afraid of you, but no one in the town will attack you or alert the guards.
Most small towns should have stores.
Some small towns should have a thieves guild member from which you can pay off fines and accept jobs.

As have I, but that area of Stealth and Subterfuge is fine, that said, it's typically prudent to not get caught stealing and murdering, so Criminal activity and stealth lend themselves to one another.

I mean, how many examples can you give of stealth incentive that doesn't involve a crime? Just because it's a crime doesn't make it inherently negative. Think of being a Double-Agent for your chosen King or Lord? The point of stealth is to be undetecte, if you were persuing unanimously noble goals, you wouldn't really need to be stealthy, now, would you?

I think this is quite possibly the best suggestion for the ES criminal system I've read. BETHESDA ARE YOU LISTENING??!?!!?

Very well put. I agree with a more logical system of applying bounties, and a 'witness' system. It has its flaws, but I still like the overall idea.

This as well. I have never really seen a game where I can survive as a plundering thief. Well I have, but that is either the point of the game or there is no long term reaction to being evil or good anyways, save for a few plot twists.

Yeah, you raise some valid points. I also don't like the psychic guards deal. Though you could have it set up differently. A crime doesn't become reported until an NPC witness physically approaches a guard. If three other entities become aware of this, then the crime isn't reported. The thing about how Oblivion worked is that guards would enter from outside if a crime occurs. They would hear some sort of conflict and barge in. At that point you're compromised. If you murder a solitary person in the street, the entire city shouldn't become aware of your assault unless they're within hearing distance, they see you, and then it is reported to a guard. NPC's in proximity of a crime rush to report it unless they are confident in their ability to fight you (which is a matter to touch on as well).

Citizens that fight back should be a rare occurance. Bethesda has stated that NPC's should react more logically to your actions this time around, but I'm just basing this off of Oblivion because that is what I have experience with. If an NPC sees you commit a crime but they think they can handle you themselves, they should actually stand a fighting chance. If they can't stop you, they should run like a logical person should. I know for a fact that I wouldn't try to kill someone armed in full daedric with a rusty iron dagger. If they do fight you, it should only be for logical reasons, like assault against another character. They should not take out a battleaxe the moment you move an apple. They should know when to run away, because NPC's, unlike guards, have no reason to put their lives in danger to stop you unless you are after them specifically or they're protecting someone important to them. And, in the very rare occurance an NPC actually has the upper hand in a fight, they shouldn't kill you if you don't fight back and surrender. If you surrender, they should essentially keep you fixed there until a guard comes.

Likelihood of this happening? Slim.

True, after a certain number of people are aware of a crime it should be considered reported beyond the point where killing all witnesses is a viable option. There was always 2 guards by gates in the IC. You would think that logically one would go look for the criminal and the other would get other guards. As for NPCs fighting back, this is basically what I think of (forgive the bad quality, people who record TV with a video camera should be burnt alive):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvrSOi5aTUU&feature=player_detailpage#t=28s

A person charges in ready to fight. He sees his opponent is much bigger than him, and decides to hit a frail target instead, then runs away.

I much preferred the bounty hunter idea.

LMAO! I love Sunny! Charlie/Greenman is my favorite character!

Back on topic. These are all great ideas. It really gets my hopes up for Skyrim. Who knows what we will see in the finished version, but I have a feeling these are all things that Bethesda has taken into consideration. I try to keep the faith.

Well nice idea, consequences always good, you divide bounty on different levels with various consequences (seems its work with infamy) thats great idea but how about additional features?
Like:
Regional known bounty
For example in your system 5 levels of bounty, crimes from first to third can be known in local area but guards from different location didn't know about them, but crime of last level can be known in other regions since its has large bounty and guards can be informed about such heavy crimes.
Best example its Apples and Crown of Jewels stole apple and only local owner and guards will know about it, stole major relic and all region will talk about such heist, another thing kills of famed peoples for DB and kill of beggar, some crimes can be know in different regions when small crimes can known only locally.

Bounty reduction overtime
Peoples forgot evil things, investigation become stale, there can be more important things for guards, criminals hides until things settle down, so bounty can reduce overtime, larger bounty will take longer time, while small bounty can be forgotten after few days.

Sneak skill check on sight encounter and equipped stolen item recognize
By some reason all can recognize criminal scums and all stolen items has unremovable stolen mark on them, why not add sneak skill check on such things, so stealth can be usable even in public places not only in shadows?
There can be some checks in in such recognition not only sneak skill also, wearing special items thats will increase disguise of character like uniforms robes and masks, some things can increase chance to be recognized like wear of stolen items on sight of guards or previous owner, or try cell stolen goods back to him.
Good rogues can remove marks of ownership from items (thats can work as perks with requirement in mercantile/speechcraft and alchemy/smithing), dilettantes and apprentices will travel in another areas or looks for Thieves Guild fences for sale such items,
such system is better then as stolen marks on all loot.

Guilds and factions can change level of %PCname bounty
Thieves guild can bribe court, temples can clean reputations for donation or pilgrimage, doing quests for area ruling factions will reduce level of bounty.
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1176341-superior-guard-behavior-in-combat/page__view__findpost__p__17384910

More great ideas!

Don't make too many assumptions. I go into this assuming that things are just like Oblivion unless otherwise said so by the developers themselves. If you speculate too much and cling to the ideas as necessary, you only set yourself up for disappointment when they don't happen. Suggestions serve their purpose as a tool for speculation and maybe, just maybe, catching a developer's attention, but they shouldn't be equated with features that would be in, but were scrapped. Too many people just plain won't buy the game because it doesn't live up to their expectations, which is just plain bizarre...

Anyways, back with this, yeah, that video was a good comparison actually. It'd be good to have an improved judgment system with the updates to Radiant AI. An NPC that isn't being threatened directly by the player, or someone they know isn't being threatened, shouldn't attempt to fight you directly. Any logical NPC would know that a guard is much more capable of bringing down a protagonist, and should always use that option unless direct action is more viable and/or necessary.

Needs to be more..for lack of a better word dangerous. Get some assassins and bounty hunters (I think they are the same thing =P)

Maybe not exactly like GTA, but if you have a huge bounty and somebody sees you on the street, they should run to tell the guards, and the guards should actively look for you.

Perhaps if you have a bounty of over 10,000 gold they'd send rangers to actually track you down.