I'm sure that abstract thought was first developed amount our habilis ancestors?I've also seen some sources suggest that basic ceremonial activities such as burial of family members can be dated back to the Neanderthals.Abstract thought doesn't seem exclusive to us.

So if your consciousness was transferred to a machine, you'd be fair game to be a slave?

Uh, if self cognizance and metaphorical thought are counted (that is, being able to anologize events today with yesterday and yesterday with tomorrow), there's a whole host of higher mammals who quite probably want to have a word with us.

And, I'm not a bleeding heart animal rights activist, but they rightly should.

(PS - humanity is still #1. Everyone complains about us until an asteroid comes along. Harrumph.

Anywho: free the synths, love the synths!)

It's your word against Picard's.

No, just that chimp deserves more respect from a sheer intellectual standpoint. I'm a speciest; given the choice, my dollar will always go to helping humans. We are the only organism on the planet capable of potentially averting sterilization of surface life.

But, if the synth decision is "help them so they can live peacefully" or "help them because they will kill innocent humans," well... burn the synths!

I think I'm going to enjoy seeing how the "anti-oppression/anti-slavery" people try to wrangle with their love of freedom, but apparent hatred of androids. Since that does seem to be how the game is going to portray the Institute vs. Railroad: as a "freedom vs. oppression" type of fight.

"Would you fight for your fellow man, even if that man is a synth?"

My bag of popcorn is ready.

Reminds me of a lot of politics that we won't get into. *popcorn* agreed.

If it thinks and feels and is self aware then to me it's alive. It doesn't matter if it's made of meat or wires. I do hope the game handles it in a more subtle and complex way than simply "they are people, and are poor and oppressed. You are a monster if you don't help."

I really hope they touch on that AI info from Fallout 2, about how previous successful AI have become depressed and tried to kill themselves. Especially considering the fact that these AI work on microtechnology that has previously never been included in Fallout. If an Eden-sized computer can have an identity crisis, I reckon these smaller ones should be even less stable.

Well, to be more precise to the topic, are human synths actually human. I say yes, since they meet all the criteria.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/scientists-create-artificial-human-eggs-and-sperm/

There is very little difference between this and machine-comprised humans.

If the Fallout Universe has taught me anything, this is one of the most human responses to the destruction of the world. *dodges raider* There is quite nothing else to say, I think. *dodges Legion*

I hope it's not a black and white thing. Like there should actually be a question if they are real people or not. I don't want the game to spell it out and say this is the good way to play and this is the bad. Gray areas are the way to go.

I imagine AI depression is somehow linked to unintentional self-awareness. And the sudden realization that you were never intended to exist as a conscious entity. I imagine there's also a bit of crisis related to being unable to really interact the world around your physically.

I would doubt that androids suffer the same issues. Especially if, like Harkness, they are essentially indistinguishable from humans. If anything, the Institute's advanced technology would almost assuredly guarantee that these AIs are more stable than pre-war ones. If your intention is to build AI's that act and look just like humans, having them come under a sudden existential crisis and go berserk would be numero uno on the list of software glitches to fix I would think.

It may not be a simple two faction war. The Brotherhood may oppose the Institute yet not be allied with the synths ... seeing them as dangerous technology. From the trailer, it looks like Diamond City is paranoid about being infiltrated by synths, so they could also hate both synths (who could be hiding among them) and the Institute who created them. It might be possible to finish the game without siding with either the synths or the Insttute.

To be certain, I'm not inclined to side with either the synths or the Institute at this time, so I'm hoping for a more complicated multi-faction conflict that will allow me to oppose both.

They didn't intend for Harkness and the few others like him to achieve a degree of self-determination either. They called it a glitch and intend to fix it. Doubt they will succeed, of course. But my point is that the Institute's track record as of now ain't exactly infallible. It's also worth noting that they considered their A3-21 prototype to be one-of-a-kind and unique for his time. Far more advanced than other models. This is technology of a caliber that Fallout has not reached prior to this point. There would realistically be a great number of "failed" androids.

That said, I don't expect it to happen. I'm sure we'll see androids both working as intended and "malfunctioning/becoming self-aware" like Harkness, and it'd be realistic for some to handle the situation similarly to the AI already established in the series. I doubt that info from Fallout 2 will even be touched on in 4, but personally, I think it'd be a nice nod.

I don't hate androids. I don't hate toasters, or ovens, or toaster ovens. I have no automatic dislike of mechanical things.

But no matter how much RAM, CPU clock speed or other constructed technology that they have, I will not seem them as "people", or any other "being".

They are simply machines. They can't be oppressed or free.

And as plant life reacts to any sustained damage, will all of you who think we should not eat meat because animals have some level of intelligence stop eating carrots because they scream?

I think, first time around, I will be playing a "bad guy" also.

In the sense of whenever I find something with a face I will put maximum distance between myself and it and insert a bullet in it.

Failing that point blank is fine too.

I'll need to give the Institute's sixbots a test run before I determine if they are people or not.

Well, in response to others view as to what classifies a person, that's a religious context. If you'd assume to tell me you could accurately define sentience without context to an ultimate mind, then how do you ultimately prove it? It's a faith based assertion.

Within a secular relativist point of view, nothing can be proven absolutely, so determining sentience is out of the question since it will invetably go down the road of ultimate legitimacy - which goes beyond simple majority or matters of probability.

A biblical consideration is actually the more interesting and consistent view - even if you dislike hearing it - that Man does not say who man is truthfully, but rather God says what man is completely. Any other concept deviated from this fundamental faith concept cannot ever hope to prove what life 'really' is if reality is held subjective.

You can believe something is sentient, but the act of believing it without an ultimate referrant doesn't make it true (consistent with what's really real)

I just want to find Max Headroom's sunglasses.

one word... Brotherhood... the brotherhood has ALWAYS been an evil faction.. except in 3.. where they were slightly less evil and trying to help for once.

the brotherhood are just fancy raiders.. they steal and murder people for energy weapons and tech... really no difference between them and the many other raiders around.. except they have nice toys...

Well OP, you don't HAVE to be a bad guy. No one is forcing you. It's still your choice. Your declaration is based more on your presumptions, prejudices, assumptions, preferences, and views (it's cool, we all have them, even if we all try desperately to convince others we don't), than anything you feel Bethesda is compelling you to do.

Like I said, it's cool, I guess I'm going to be a good guy.

There is a big difference in what defines a synth and what defines a robot.

A robot runs on code and doesnt think the same way as a human, it doesnt have the same level of self awareness. Codsworth for example talking in a believeable, emotional way is only an illusion to try amd give him an external personality, one he is unaware of internaly

A synth on the other hand is made to think in the exact same ways as a human. with urges, emotion, ambitions, and a self conciousness just like a person.

The institute created the synths to look and think like people so that they may believe that they are human. But they also conditioned them to follow their orders. The synths who follow without question dont know about what lies outside of what they are commanded, like a bot, but when they learn what lies outside of their slavery, they rebel. Just as a human would.

The point behind this is the synths think that they are human, and to enslave them is to put them under the same pain as a human slave. And in my eyes that is just as evil.

My first run I'm going for "neutral self-motivated." Whichever side offers the better rewards, be it the most xp, best treasure or best outcome for my character, is what side I'll be choosing.

I disagree - it is not a religious question, but a philosophical question. What is sentience? The religious question would be: Does it have a soul? But the problem there is that no one can prove that anyone has a soul, so that doesn't work. And while nothing can be proven absolutely, that doesn't have to be our level of required proof. In a court room, suspects are not required to be proven guilty to an absolute certainty. If they were, there would be no one in prison. No convictions. Ever. Because, as you say, nothing can be proven to an absolute certainty. Prosecutors could be lying. Police and witnesses could be lying. Evidence could have been tampered with. It could be a conspiracy by the government to frame the person, and so forth.

We humans are the ones who will make the decision on what we will consider sentience and what we will consider as deserving of "human rights". What that standard will be is under debate. Are Chimps sentient? What about Dolphins?

Religion cannot determine this, as they will not all agree. Some will say that Synths are sentient, others will say they are machines.

Do not forget, not that long ago, it was widely believed that Blacks did not feel love, as Whites do. For them, it was merely an instinct, no different from that of any common animal. Not that much of a leap from there to say that they are not human, is it?

Is a Synth's sentience, "merely programming"? No different from that of a high-tech toaster, or a Protectron? That's up to us to decide. But it is certainly an interesting philosophical question Bethesda has given us to wrestle with - IF they have done it well. And that...we have yet to discover.