Guild Advancement : V - Skyrim

» Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:55 am

The Guilds should be a double-edged sword. On the one hand, they provide a good means of advancement for characters of a certain archetype. However, any realistic guild only has power because it uses legal or extralegal means to restrict the supply of skilled labor in certain fields. As such, a Thieves Guild would deal harshly with non-affiliated thieves, an Assassins Guild would deal harshly with people who murder for others, and Fighters and Mages Guilds would work with local governments to punish those who use martial weaponry or spells or sold potions without being licensed by the guild.

Ya know, this is how the TG and DB would operate in Daggerfall. Hell, there was a book published by a TG member saying he broke many arms of freelance thieves in his days, because they refused to join the Thieves Guild. Also, the DB had quests in which you not only killed the freelance assassin, but also the employer.

Hell, what the Fighters Guild did in Oblivion was pretty much keep a hold of their monopoly by killing off the Blackwood Company, and the Mages Guild did that in Morrowind (hell, they would even kill their own members if they refused to pay dues)

» Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:14 am

I really hope they DON'T utilize the Morrowind method. How does someone know how proficient you are in a certain skill just by looking at you? How is it realistic that a mage with 75 destruction will get promoted but a mage with 74 won't?

How is it realistic that someone can be the head of the Thieves Guild with level 20 sneak or security. I understand what you're saying but you can't bring up realism. There are a(n) (in)finite different ways that games defy reality. Do you like Oblivion's way of doing it/? If not , and you don't like Morrowind's do you have any ideas how it could be fixed?

Suggestions that you should only be able to join a few guilds worry me. If you are good at things you should be able to join guilds for them. A spell sword who has leveled up his sneak skill should be able to advance in the Fighter's, Thieve's, and Mage's guild, limited only by skill level and faction rep.

Yeah I don't think Guilds should restrict joinage. Only Political factions.

» Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:25 pm

yes to skill and level requirements.

Perhaps instead of having one area of magic (MG as an example) trained up as someone suggested, have a primary type of magic trained up and a few others trained, but not as much as your primary, know what i mean? I'm not sure if that was in Morrowin or not because I haven't played the game in so long

But yes to level/skill requirements for advancing.

Another thing: As well as doing quests to advance, perhaps do odd jobs to gain favour with some of the higher members? Again, sort of like Morrowind style when you got the mushrooms and flowers for Ajira.

SKYRIM = Morrowind but x1000 better

» Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:14 am

I'd like it to be like how Morrowind had it.

» Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:14 am

Yeah I don't think Guilds should restrict joinage. Only Political factions.

That seems like it should go without saying.

» Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:52 pm

[snip] Also this is unrelated to the poll but it needs to be much harder to get someone who hates you to suddenly like you. Instead of just throwing money at them to get their disposition up.

Although I don’t want to continue off topic talk. I had an idea a while back about characters having two disposition ratings. One is short term and one is long term. The short term rating has a small limit on how high of low it can go. The current disposition is based on the short term rating and long term combined. This means that you can make a character like or hate you more or less by throwing around a few jokes, but to make an NPC really like you need to take time with it and persist.

The short term rating slowly fades back to neutral over about a day. The long term rating does not change while you are interacting with the NPC but while the short term rating fades to 0 it gets added to the long term rating.

Incorporating a more politically minded guild advancement system with NPC's who take days or weeks or months of repeat interaction to greatly change their disposition to you could make for some really quite interesting emergent gameplay. The down side to this is that it would be tedious if NPC's didn’t have their own personalities. If each NPC acted similarly and spoke almost identical dialogue then who would want to spend time making friends with them.

EDIT: Typos

» Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:37 am

Although I don’t want to continue off topic talk. I had an idea a while back about characters having two disposition ratings. One is short term and one is long term. The short term rating has a small limit on how high of low it can go. The current disposition is based on the short term rating and long term combined. This means that you can make a character like or hate you more or less by throwing around a few jokes, but to make an NPC really like you need to take time with it and persist.

The short term rating slowly fades back to neutral over about a day. The long term rating does not change while you are interacting with the NPC but while the short term rating fades to 0 it gets added to the long term rating.

Incorporating a more politically minded guild advancement system with NPC's who take days or weeks or months of repeat interaction to greatly change their disposition to you could make for some really quite interesting emergent gameplay. The down side to this is that it would be tedious if NPC's didn’t have their own personalities. If each NPC acted similarly and spoke almost identical dialogue then who would want to spend time making friends with them.

EDIT: Typos

That's why I think it would be better to return to text dialogue. Of course that will never happen but it would make it much easier if the writers don't need to have every line of dialogue recorded.

Slightly back on topic. I was thinking for the Mages Guild each city could have a specialisation (like Oblivion) and to advance in that chapter you would need to advance in their preferred skill. The main Mages Guild quests could still be done but there would be smaller quest-lines for each type of magic. This is probably just wishful thinking though.

» Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:38 pm

I want to see some form of skill requirement as it applies. I felt Morrowind was a little too strict. But a more subjective system would be good. I think the Mage's Guild should require profinincy in at least 2 magical disciplines.

However I don't think the Fighter's Guild should have a particular skill requirement, because they're essentially a mercenary group, and as long as you can complete the job, it wouldn't/shouldn't matter if you use combat, magic or stealth to complete the missions. But I think it would be interesting to have, in the case of the FIghter's Guild, duels to advance to higher ranks, not necessarily duels to the death. So if you're a very stealthy character with limited direct combat abilities it could be much harder for you to advance to higher ranks. Another thought is having a guilld like the Fighter's require you to have any 2 or 3 skills at a certain level(s). eg: to become a master of the guild you are required to have one master skill and 3 expert skills...

As for guilds like the Thieves or Dark Brotherhood, I would like to see them have some requirements, the Thieves could be a little more strict, requiring proficeny in, sneak OR illusion, with a usable invisibilty or chamleon spell AND security or alteration, with a usable open spell of 'x' level. That way you would require the character to be a sneaky theif, but not dictate how they go about it. For a Dark Brotherhood type guild, I'd like to see the requirement to have one offensive skill at a certain level, so any weapon or offensive magic.

Another thought I had would be having more consequences from how you beat your missions and advance through the guild. eg: Dark Brotherhood, if you are bashing and slashing your way through early missions, with no regard to stealth and lots of collateral damage, you maybe be denied rank, or have to go on a extra mission or two to prove your abilty/worth. "Sorry brother, I can't promote you when you make no effort to keep our guild secret" or "Brother, I know you have your eye on becoming 'next rank' But you need to prove you can be a more discreet assassian, here take these contracts and show the Night Mother you can be discreet and she shall reward you"
To continue on that above idea, for the Fighter's Guild, if your character has repeatedly been in trouble with the law, thefts, assults, time in jail, they could be barred further advancement. "You will never be promoted when you continue to ignore our charter" "You read the charter, you know we frown on criminal acts, and yet you ask for advancement?" And your character would have to make amends, either through other quests, or maybe some heavy bribery.

In conclusion, I want to see some form of advancement requirement, not as strict as Morrowind, and maybe with some new aspects, taking the way you've played into account. It would really add to the role playing aspect of the game, the world would feel more alive imo

» Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:03 am

I think a "Certain skill level required for advancment (Morrowind)" would be fine. The difficulty I had with the system in Morrowind was that you couldn't advanced a skill above it's governing attribute... this impeded advancement more than just a simple skills requirement check. As long as the attribute requirement for skill does't happen, then the skill requirement for guilds is manageable.

» Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:20 pm

Smorez thinks that guild advancement should be based on how great a job you do in a guild. Smorez thinks you should have to be in a guild in time of game for atleast 3-7 days or a reasonable time. Smorez thinks you should have to be in the guild for awhile and do quests for people, then the npcs should consider if you're ready for move up. That's what smorez thinks. Smorez say bye nao!

» Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:40 pm

level and skill.

» Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:51 pm

I would like to see skill requirements again in a similar fashion as TES3:Morrowind. I found it rather odd to see my hulking Nord Warrior who had little to no magical training become Archmage simply because he bashed Mannimarco's skull in with a giant battleaxe. They should have made my axe Archmage then, as that one had more magic than my character had :shrug:

So yeah, showing a certain ... aptitude ... would be preferable.

» Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:40 pm

I would like to see skill requirements again in a similar fashion as TES3:Morrowind. I found it rather odd to see my hulking Nord Warrior who had little to no magical training become Archmage simply because he bashed Mannimarco's skull in with a giant battleaxe. They should have made my axe Archmage then, as that one had more magic than my character had :shrug:

So yeah, showing a certain ... aptitude ... would be preferable.

no doubt your axe would've had more influence directing the guild's future then your player ever did

» Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:38 pm

Cliff's Notes from my post in the TES V Ideas & Suggestions thread #2 (I think):

Advancement should be based on four criteria (when possible):

Progressing along a structured, overarching quest line. Pretty much how Oblivion's guild progression worked; you complete a mission or two for the guild that advances some intricate storyline, leading toward a climix once you reach a high rank in the guild. For every one or two sub-missions within this quest line, you unlock the ability to receive a promotion. However, you need to do more to receive the promotion, as outline in points 2-4 below.
Meeting skill-based requirements. Relatively general incentive-based skill requirements for receiving a promotion... For example, to become a Shadowwalker in the Thieves Guild, you must be an Expert in two Sneak-related skills, and a Journeyman in two others. This in addition to the other requirements in this list.
Completing randomly generated assignments for the guild. These would be a little more black-and-white than the sub-missions for the main quest line from point 1. Things like "Bring in x bear hides," "Investigate y caves in z province," or when you get higher in rank, something like "Train the new crop of recruits in basic swordplay," or "Meet with a politician to maintain diplomatic guild relations." You'd have to complete 1-3 of these randomly generated assignments to receive a promotion, in addition to meeting the other three requirements in this list.
Increasing your reputation among your peers and superiors. In any real structured society, advancement is largely based on your ability to gain the trust and respect of the people around you. You should have to talk to people and maybe do some favors for them (especially people above you in the guild hierarchy) to help stand out and increase your overall standing with the guild. This might have to be a bit more "under the hood" as opposed to a black-and-white system of "Gain a disposition of x with y guild members of at least rank z."

So that's four unique things you have to balance and achieve before you will finally receive that promotion. This will make advancement much more significant, and it will ensure that no one progresses along the guild ladder too quickly. It will also prevent people with no magical ability from becoming Archmage of the Mages Guild, and other similar situations.

» Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:52 am

I think skill should matter, but a player should not have to have skills in every skill set involved in that guild. One or two should be sufficient. For example, you should not be able to advance to archmage if you have no mastery of any of the schools of magic. However, if you are a master of Conjuration, Destruction, Alteration and Restoration, you should not also have to be a master of Mysticism and Alchemy. Even if you are only a novice in several of the schools a given guild specializes in, advanced skill in some of their key skill sets should be suffiecient to advance you.

» Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:53 pm

One of my posts from an old Suggestions Thread concerning Factions: (I know it only deals with the fighter's guild, and at some point I expanded on it. But I apparently didn't save that bit... which blows)

Spoiler

Faction Quests

I just had an idea on how we could combine the quest "variety" of Daggerfall and the "depth" of Oblivion without breaking the bank. Remember how in Oblivion there were only three cities in which one could get a quest for the fighter's guild although there were guildhalls in each city? (except for IC because that wasn't in the "Inner Circle" but I'm ranting) Well, I suggest that there continue to be three major cities in which the PC can receive "important" quests or quests that stand as milemarkers for the PC's advancement through the guild, and how he/she gains his/her fame. In the other cities, however, there should be "menial" quests offered for the PC that still give gold and reputation bonuses, but not increase the PC's reputation.

These quests would be picked out of lists at random from certain bracketts organized by "level" or difficulty. For example, there would be bracketts of quests in the level ranges of [1-4] [5-9] [10-14] [15-19] and [20+] each with about 15 different quests with little depth or gimmicks (things like guard the store, save the kitty, or find my lucky pants). One of these would be offered to the player at random based on the PC's rank. This would go about in this order:(Brackett details at bottom)

Associate- An associate would have a 100% chance of receiving a quest in the [1-4] brackett as guilds don't give more important matters to newbies.

Apprentice- An apprentice would have a 75% chance of receiving a quest in the [1-4] range and a 25% chance of receiving a quest in the [5-9] range as the PC is beginning to undertake responsibilities and the guild wants to see what the PC's made of.

Journeyman- A journeyman would have a 55% chance of receiving a quest in the [1-4] range and a 45% chance of receiving a quest in the [5-9] range because the guild now expects the guildmate to begin to take on harder challenges as well as show commitment.

Swordsman- A swordsman should have a 35% chance of receiving a quest in the [1-4] range, a 50% chance of receiving a quest in the [5-9] range, and a 15% chance of receiving a quest in the [10-14] range. The "training wheels" are off and the guildmate now has a significant standing among the guild and its affiliates such that he/she is expected to shoulder harder stasks.

Protector- A protector would have a 15% chance of receiving a quest in the [1-4] range, a 45% chance of receiving a quest in the [5-9] range, and a 40% chance of receiving a quest in the [10-14] range. At this point, the guildmate is beginning to be looked upon as a role-model, and must begin to act like one.

Defender- A defender in the fighter's guild should have a 0% chance of receiving a quest in the [1-4] range, a 25% chance of receiving a quest in the [5-9] range, a 55% chance of receiving a quest in the [10-14] range, and a 20% chance of receiving a quest in the [15-19] range. The PC is becoming a very popular person for completing quests in the guild, and the guild realizes that his/her skills are better put to more difficult tasks.

Guardian- A guardian should have a 10% chance of receiving a quest in the [5-9] brackett, a 45% chance of receiving a quest in the [10-14] brackett, and a 45% chance of receiving a quest in the [15-19] brackett. The guildmate is now their go-to guy to get the job done, and is trusted with some of the most difficult tasks.

Champion- A champion should have a 10% chance of receiving a quest in the [5-9] brackett, a 25% chance of receiving a quest in the [10-14] brackett, a 35% chance in the [15-19] brackett, and a 30% chance of receiving a quest in the [20+] brackett. The champion is one step below the guildmaster and should be the best that the fighter's guild has to offer. People know who the PC is, and know not to waste his/her time.

Master- the master has a 45% chance of picking up a quest in the [15-19] brackett and a 55% chance of picking up a quest in the [20+] brackett.

In order to advance in rank, a guildsman would have to complete a certain amount of these quests as well as the "milestone" quests. This would fluidly incorporate Daggerfall's volume, Morrowind's skill requirements, and Oblivion's "depth". Other factors would also affect the odds of what sort of quest the player gets such as luck and reputation. So if the player is level 2 and an slid through to Journeyman rank on brackett [1-4] quests, but his luck was damaged or he insulted the questgiver in some manner, his odds of receiving the harder quest would increase. Likewise, someone of Protector rank at level 15 with low luck or questgiver disposition would get the easier quest because of its lack of challenge and reward. This allows the player to still use the guild as a profession as much as a plot so that instead of cheating alchemy to get the gold needed to repair your armor and buy your house, you're doing quests and earning gold as well as training your combat skills while creating a unique-ish environment for the player to live in with his/her consequences.

Now those "milestone" quests would involve some overheading storyline, and fall together hopefully seemlessly without doing something along the lines of setting up a quest, but not giving it to you because of rank. The difficulty in these quests should be around the upper levels of the "Miscelaneous" faction quests for the PC's rank.

Now (as said earlier) here's the general rundown of the quest bracketts:

[1-4]- These quests would be things like "save the kitty" or the ever so famous "rat" quest. These are more along the lines of chores as much as quests. The payout for these is 50 gold and an ever so modest faction rep-bump

[5-9]- These quests begin to feel more like quests. Now that the guild trusts the player, these quests can still be menial, but carry weight like delivering sealed messages. However, they should also be more perilous. So things like "Kill the bear that's in my closet!" or "Escourt this person that's had a bad run-in with such'n'such a faction to such'n'such a place" can now be done. The reward for these quests is 100 gold and a less modest rep bump

[10-14]- These quests begin to be more difficult, and begin to offer some loot. Things like "Kill these bandits" and "Goblins have taken over my farm" begin to show up. The pay for these quests is 200 gold and a better rep bump.

[15-19]- Things now become dangerous and potentially lethal. The things that would be done at this level are "Kill the necromancer at the bottom of Castle Ceiling Flail" and "You and a raiding party are to storm a marauder stronghold, and kill their leader" These quests generally are dungeon delves that begin to take the player to the darker corners of the map where more powerful monsers and "baddies" live. These quests pay out a handsom 500 gold and earn you some real respect among your guildmates.

[20+]- These quests are essentially high-level challenge runs where things expected of you are "Destroy the followers of Mehrunes Dagon at the shrine of such'n'such" at such'n'such, there would be many daedra as well as cultists armed to the teeth with high-quality items. The payout for these quests is a cool 1000 gold and bragging rights amoung the guild... or horror stories at the bar.

» Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:27 pm

I'd like for you too actually be a high level character to be a high level guild member, I don't understand how anyone would let a greenhorn be a guildmaster, so I voted for the Morrowind option.

» Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:04 pm

Now this idea is primarily based around MW spellcasting (chance of failure) but it could be re-calibrated to fit most of the guilds.

Ranking Challenge Quests

The idea is, again with chance of failure, at a certain level you are pretty much certain of a particular base level action. Like casting a simple water walking spell. So when advancement becomes available (through reputation, or whatever means) additionally you have to pass this skill check. However the skill check is within a specific action, or series of actions, withing the ranking quest itself. I like this kind of a set up because it handles the much stricter, tiered, MW advancement system in a more fluid manner. A manner that can be exploited by the slightly weaker using buffs, brains, or a more rounded character, but is still out of reach of the totally unexperienced.

Also, being rich and buying buffs to finish whichever quest would still fit into the world, as many people rely on coins over skill.

I am not sure how these things can be added to just any guild, like the fighters, (be able to take 100 dmg without healing? hit that tree really hard?) but just the minor variation in how it is set up would take care of all the number complaints that pop up.

In lieu of that, Morrowind + reputation system.
(which is probably the Daggerfall system)

» Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:34 am

I would like MW guild advancement, but when you're about to have a big rank up you undergo some kind of test. Like if you are getting a big advancement in the mages guild you go into the testing ring and have fellow mages summon daedra that you have to kill in a certain time limit. Fighters guild equivalent could be a lengthy dual. Or to prove your prowess with marksmen you have an intense accuracy test. The tests would be repeatable until you succeed, but with a penalty (not as severe as death except in DB). Thinking about it, they would kind of be like the master trainer quests (block my attacks for 45 seconds to prove your block ability)
However, guilds like the Arena, that don't have loyalty, would be like Oblivion. All the arena cares about is that you killed people, so just like in oblivion you'd rank up after you killed enough contestants with no other requirement

» Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:03 pm

You should never be 100% reliant on skill checks. Seriously. How's that guy SURE you only have a 59 in Alteration, not a 60?
Something like "know one of these spells and two of these and cast them in front of three witnesses OR have an average magic skill of OR complete this many tasks for your superiors (kissing posterior) OR play politics enough to get a clear majority of the advancement committee to support you as part of internal disagreements with the other guys." That's a much better than a single option that isn't terribly realistic. In fact, this type of criteria would allow people to be complete charlatans still... but at least then it's a concerted effort to make it happen, and a story you've written by trying, as opposed to me becoming Archmage because I have a high sneak skill and the necromancers never see it coming until a frosty Daedric Mace cracsk their skull. In the end, both should be possible, but skills should be the easiest way.

» Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:42 pm

Morrowind's system made more sense. I mean a person with zero melee skills could be the Guild Master of the Fighter's Guild, seems a bit silly.

» Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:19 am

While I like the idea of being able to be promoted just by being successful, it is kind of strange sometimes. For example, my first playthrough that I was head of the mages guild, I had virtually no magic skill. Morrowind's makes more sense, I think.

» Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:03 pm

on top of minimum requirements i also want some guilds to be restricted if you pick an opposing guild. the assassins guild, whomever that is going to be should be unknown to the others. this could change if you tell an npc about it, such as when you scared the bandits in oblivion by telling them you are dark brotherhood. in the case of the mages guild they probably would have a magical way of vetting people and preventing undesirables in. if you high up in the fighters guild the thieves guild wont want you cause fighters are contracted out to protect stuff from thieves. what i dont want is the ability to join every single guild and to become the leader of that guild with very minimal amounts of skills in the field. seriously why in vanilla oblivion that let my character become archmage when i only majored in one magic skill.

» Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:03 pm

There should always be an alternative to hard skill checks (which should never be based on raw numbers, but rather actually DOING something).

You should:

be able to demonstrate a breadth not depth as an alternative to having 1 magic skill at 90 and 2 at 30.
be able to kiss enough posterior that the advancement committeee gives you a free pass (should definitely be tedious!)
be able to manipulate/blackmail the advancement committee
be able to choose a "trial by fire" to prove your worth
be able to buy your rank with real-world accomplishments that matter to the guild, but are not Guild Quests.

Sure, your all-brawn barbarian could still be Archmage... but at least now you've created a longer story than "Yeah, I killed all of the necromancers with a Daedric Frosty Mace because they can't see me... and if they do, I'm more metal than man by weight."

» Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:26 pm

Both skill and reputation. You shouldn't be able to join the Fighters Guild if you are a member of the Dark Brotherhood and vice versa, et cetera.

no no no, just no.
i want to be able to join all guilds with one char. political faction can have the rep req.
i love being head of the assassins guild, and then working for the others. and they have no idea im a stealthy killing machine that could [censored] them all in their sleep.