I like those too. However, with the last example, I think some restrictions should be put in place with it.
Even though Trebonious(sp?) was a ridiculous head of the Vvanderfall guild he still had his specialization. I wouldn't want a warrior oriented class with two magic oriented skills popping up as archmage. And for that matter, I think that the advancement level for the PC could be lowered but still offer some of the perks found in OB. Champion of the Fighters Guild sounds about right, Master a bit much.

On that note I wouldn't mind seeing some branching positions in the factions, referring back to the Imperial Cult, minus the linear rank progression. Something like: This guys is master of botany / alchemy, study with him. This guy is the Guild protector, train with him. This guy is the Guild armorer, do his brute labor. And so on, receiving an official or unofficial title, but no direct rank. All help with faction reputation and so on.

I like that idea a lot. Especially if they can incorporate ways to use those skills to uniquely assist the guild (e.g. a skilled botanist/alchemist could do "potions research" with a veteran alchemist from the guild. This would help establish a positive relationship with a high-ranking guildmember, and maybe qualify as one of those generated tasks you need to do as well. Plus your discoveries could have a greater impact on the guild's development, like maybe you learn how to make stronger potions of restore Magicka, which leads to the ability to make them yourself and/or purchase stronger potions from guild potion makers.

I think there should also be more administrative positions in major guilds, so rather than working your way toward the "highest rank" of Archmage/President/whatever, you're working to reach the "highest rank" of Councilman or Chief Advisor or something. From there, just maybe, with enough time and effort, if the guildmaster steps down or dies or something, you would be considered for promotion (along with the other council members and administrators). So it may be possible to reach that true guildmaster status, but really you have the same power as before, since decisions would be made by the administrative board anyway, of which you are still a member. The difference is maybe a bit more money per week, or a bit more influence over the board's decisions.

Definitely Morrowind style.

Would make the game a little longer with just this change because you would actually have to build your characters skills up before going on... taking time out of the quests, or atleast that guild specific quest line, to go level up.

The stat limit on raising skills meant you HAD to level up to get in high rank in the guilds which would have gone a looong way to make Oblivion level scaling far less of a problem.

The Morrowind way of guild promotions had so much good compared to Oblivion they have to go back to how it was.

quote : I really hope they DON'T utilize the Morrowind method. How does someone know how proficient you are in a certain skill just by looking at you? How is it realistic that a mage with 75 destruction will get promoted but a mage with 74 won't?



this could be remedied by the player having to complete quests that require certain skill levels to complete, for example a mage guild quest may require you to cast certain spells which require a given level to cast etc...

much more important to me is that you don't advance in rank for every single task you perform.
Advancement should feel like an achievement, where as in Oblivion it was mandatory to click the 'advancement'-button before getting your next task.


I wouldn't mind skill requirements too much, but i'd prefer that they make the missions harder in such a way that it pays off to use the respective guild's skills.
A good example is the Dark Brotherhood in OB:
You could just walk up to your target and slash him with an axe, but you could also sneak and 'fix the problem' using a different approach, making things look like an accident. You'd be rewarded with a bonus for the latter.

For the Fighters- and Mages Guild they could encourage the 'correct' skills by using certain enemies with resistances (like ghosts for mages) and such.
Obviously they shouldn't over-do this, as the same type of enemies will get rather repetitive, but you get my point

Either morrowind style hard skill checks or tests that absolutely require the skills the guild/faction values

there was an excellent mod for oblivion that required you to cast certain test spells in order to get official status as an expert or journeyman in a magic school. you were given a paper which you later turned in to the mage university and even got some nice if a bit overpowered rewards. it also required that you master in 3 schools of magic and you had to be expert in the others i think. they had something similar for the fighters guild such as having to survive someone attacking you while not fighting back to show that you had sufficient light or heavy armor skill. it was an excellent concept with the exception of the rewards being a bit to good.

oblivions systems is crap. it makes no sense for someone to become the master of all the guilds in a matter of weeks. the mages guild does not like the dark brotherhood period.

as for the magic 74 versus 75 i also wish they would bring back morrowinds chance system only if you screw up you get a temporary penalty to stats or fatigue or something.......once again this was done by a mod and made magic more interesting. i got burned literally more than a few times trying to cast spells in dungeons that i shouldnt have. *hugs PC* dammit i love mods.

Skill Level, Character Level, and Proficiency should all be requirements to get a quest to advance rank. This would make playing a full mage worthwhile, yet allow a jack of all trades advancement to be more difficult.

I voted Morrowind skill level mattering but I changed my mind. It shouldn't matter. BUT this is under the idea of minimal to no level scaling, so you would still need to be of a certain capability to go up in rank. There's just no official level.

You should never be allowed in a guild, much less be head that guild, without knowing something about the skills the guild uses..... as was done in Oblvion.

Morrowind style advacements and certain skill levels is what it needed for Skyrim. You should also be limited as to how many guilds you can join at once, this makes replayablity much more successful and fun.

In Vvanderfall, very realistic.

Skill requiment should be brought back into the Guild System. In an extreme, I would prefer that the Player can NEVER reach the status of top hierarchy of the guild rank like Arch-Mage or Master, namely because what I understand, I would assume it would take years to become the top rank of the said guild and I don't really believe a new comer should become one all suddenly.

Fighters guilds: Extreme hard Tournaments (fight without magika)
Mages guilds: misions + skills
Thieves guilds: misions + skills
assessins guild: missions + negative karma
knights guild: missions + positive karma

Knights Guild?
Like, the military?

Well, my Orc with 5 magicka points should be able to be Archmage, I mean it only makes sense.

I don't know I'm conflicted here. I loved Morrowind, and the skill reputation and quest orientation worked just fine for me, and so I really have no complaints and would definitely like to see it return before Oblivions system... However, I'm a very very old school role-play gamer, both in video games, as well as outside, as such I frequently find the ideology in a role-play game that there are barriers and a "Certain way things must be done", or a set "Path that cannot be strayed from" very troubling. It shatters immersion for me... But likewise, I hate that some people can't just play a game for themselves and enjoy it, and must cheat, exploit, or resort to walkthroughs and guides and various other ploys to satisfy their completionist mindsets...

My solution is simple, I think the primary way, and perhaps the easiest way to level up in a guild should be a combination of skills, set quests, and reputation, however, for the sake of making this a genuine role-play game that encourages freedom of choice, and endless opportunities and options, I recommend all guilds have a procedurally generated political system, or collection of background hidden quests and alternative routes. They must be procedurally generated to prevent walkthroughs, but these alternatives, political systems, hidden quests, opportunities, and intrigue would add depth to guilds even if you chose the normal method to rise to the top of the guild, and if you didn't might even offer an alternative way through much greater struggles and difficulty and mastery of other skills employed to get the same results. The point is OPTIONS are key to a role-play game, and I know for a fact people hated the unkillable feinting key NPC's or the mysterious boundaries, and unopenable randomly sealed doors throughout oblivion. In order to avoid these sorts of immersion breakers this sort of concept must be adopted, or something similar at least.

:thumbsup:

well i said knights like the nine divines or tha blades knights something like that

That would be a Sect.
Or a set-up like the Imperial Cult, though that was not entirely a knightly order.

Skills and attributes like morrowind, but make it more difficult to advance. Attribute requirements must be definitely higher than morrowind...

Quest and skill requirements. This would make it impossible to become head of all guilds with the same character.
I always thought it was really dumb that a pure warrior could become the Archmage of the Mages Guild.

I think that there should be multiple ways to influence advancement in a guild.

Start from the ground up, how do you advance in a guild? I’m guessing that higher ups in the guild have meetings and discuss people in the guild and who should advance. Maybe by a vote or maybe through discussion and the head of the guild has sole decision.
You can influence people on the board for guild advancement by bribery/speechcraft^*1 or by impressing them through displays of skills^*2 or by advancing the guilds interests^*3 or by a few other methods.


^*1 If it is possible to influence people through speechcraft like this then speechcraft must be much harder. You can’t be able to influence enough to love you after one encounter. A trusting friendship must require that you repeatedly visit someone and are nice to them over time (Or use a charm spell every time you meet them)
^*2 The fighters guild could have a fighting tournament (alla the arena) thief's guild could have some thieving tournament or if you are a famous outside the guild then your reputation will help influence.
^*3 This would be standard quests.

I think that by linking guild advancement to a tangible thing, like a board of guild advancement which is attended by guild leaders, it will seem more real. Oblivions system felt quite detached, and so did Morrowinds.

Does it make sense to let a pure warrior into the Mages guild? I wouldn't think so. I'd say have the skill check to get into the guilds, but no skill checks after that. You should have to raise those skills the guild emphasizes to complete your quests for that guild though.

For example, you have to break into somewhere for the Thieves Guild and their guards have stones for detecting magic. If you use an illusion spell to sneak in, you'd be caught.

This system would require a couple easy sacrifices to improve the role playing. One is spell scrolls. Do you remember the quest in Oblivion that you had to cast spells at a staircase? Without spell scrolls, you'd have to be a magic user to accomplish that mission. Daggerfall had no spell scrolls, and many missions requiring specific spells. Things like banish daedra, or the open spell on a magical lock.

The other sacrifice would be the spells that increase specific skills, like Long Blade. If you need to beat someone in a fight to pass a requirement, spells that put your weapon skill through the roof would completely unbalance the game. I'd still think that spells increasing your attributes would be fine, but it seems game-breaking to me in general to have skill specific increases. What if you're trying to buy a house, and you need to haggle with the guy? A spell increases your mercantile ability to two hundred for one second, and you get the house for pennies on the dollar. That is an abuse, the game world needs to be more reasonable than that.

I"m all for having to met requirements to advance in Guilds either through experience in the game or teaching. As much as I did love Oblivion, this was one aspect they got very wrong for my game. I was disturbed that someone specialized as a fighter and no magika skills could become the top banana in the Mage's Guild.