The Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild questlines are a good length. Very fun.

The companions and College, however, are very short. I wasn't rushing the College quests at all, and it really only took me about 4 hours to complete. I figured I would do 3 or 4 quests for the College, you know, to get some experience under my belt, before I explored Skyrim. And wala, it was finished almost as soon as it began. Same thing with the Companions. The Main Quest and the rest of the Guilds are good, but those two seem very short.

I imagine that DLC will add a lot here. At least hopefully.

I have one big problem with this argument, that almost feels like a brush-off to me.\

I could spend 2 hours doing the quest lines, or I could spend an entire week. Either way, when all is said and done and I'm guild master, if I stop and take stock of what I actually did, it's still the same. Just because I spent a week lollygagging doesn't make it feel like I accomplished any more. Or that I'm any more deserving of the rank they handed me at the end.

So far I'm not getting that feeling in DB. My char has gotten a couple of "assignments" and she did them at her leisure. She will also return to the DB to get her next assigment at her leisure (dabbling with the MQ right now at the Thalmore party).

A lot of people in here seem to be saying "Well if you ignore the actual faction you wish to participate in and do all this other unrelated stuff...." which seems to me to be a flat out admission that the lengths of the factions are pathetic. Now some people are saying the Thieves Guild and DB are decent, I can't comment on that as I haven't completed them yet, but I was dumbfounded at the completion of the Companions. "Wait, what? I'm done? Are you serious, I just joined!" Had you done the same number of quests from one of the larger amount of joinable factions in Morrowind you would've maybe gotten your second promotion out of 9.

Some of you may call it "rushing" the faction; I call it roleplaying. When an NPC tells me "You have do to X, or BAD THINGS WILL HAPPEN." I tend to make that a priority whether or not the game actually gives me a time limit. I'm definitely not going to ignore it while I go pick flowers for some other NPC.

So far the thieves guild line is the longest I've played in Skyrim, it still seems shorter then oblivions thieves guild tho. Oblivion's thieves guild line has 12 quests compared to Skyrim's thieves guild line having 11 quests and oblivion had the additional requirement of having to steal without killing people, some quests killing was forbidden completely in oblivion. They both have long and short quests, but oblivion's long quests were longer then skyrim's long quests... The thieves guild line was perhaps the shortest in oblivion, if you removing all the required stealing to unlock the quests themselves; Then when you consider that skyrim's thieves guild is one of the longest and still shorter then it's equivalent in oblivion...

Well yes. It's a Bethesda game. Haven't played one yet that didn't have sketchy writing, atrocious dialogue and even worse voice acting.

I just accept them for what they are and enjoy their epic world building.

You think that just because it's seen as the norm then that makes it okay?

Yeah they are short, which is sad really because the world is so comprehensively created. I'm guessing that they just ran out of time on them and that resulted in them being so short. The Mage's guild pacing actually reminded me of an fps game (just saying), it felt as though I was being pushed to get the tasks done asap due to the dialogue's sense of impending doom. That left me feeling excited while doing it but very let down and confused after it was all over. Noob to arch mage in six(?) easy steps!

I'm planning to do both for the first time with my next character. Most folks seem to agree with you, so I'm looking forward to them and hoping for the best.

To say nothing of the master wizards and other elders in the college ranks that just roll over on this one. What about the two females who were vying for Mirabelle's position? What about the other elder wizards who are master trainers in their discipline? It seems to me that your character did enough to simply earn a seat at the table as a member, rather than an apprentice by taking down Ancano. I think the part we are missing is that they "tried" to give it legitimacy by using the Psjic order to ordain it. Just as you are dragon born, you are also arch-mage born. It just seems to have been ordained on a higher level. In Oblivion, you rose through the ranks, and felt that you earned it, if you wanted it. You could also retire your character comfortably as an awesome warlock and use those skills in other factions if that was your preference. It was not an all or nothing proposition, and provided much more depth to game play overall.

Just as another thought... Seems like the college quest line could have been used to promote you from apprentice to wizard in the college. Oblivion had many npc characters throughout Cyrodil who were alumni of Arcane University. My character has always thought that Sybille Stentor in Solitude was awesome. He may just have a thing for robed women since he married Senna, and is a devout Sennamancer. In any event, Sybille has enough spells for sale in her black bag, that he clearly does not have the skill to cast. She has every right to laugh in his face, when he approaches her with his arch mage robe on. Perhaps your character could be required to pursue a series of epic quests from wizards in the various jarl courts to further advance rank, and gain recommendations for promotion to arch-mage. My character also gave both Jordis and Lydia a respite while pursing college quests and tried to work with Breylana. She recognizes his accomplishment, but a greater connection or even promotion for her would also be interesting since he hand picked her over Orsmund? and the cowardly lion.

You see, the problem is that we have some people who dont seem to understand that this is a game. When I play something for fun on my xbox, the last thing I want is to impose myself some sort of discipline or restrictions.

Its even that worst an argument that we are talking about Skyrim: "Be what you want, be who you want... if you play specifically how we tell you to play."

Sorry man, but that post of yours is embarassing. I'd edit it if I were you.

As for the OP... take the College quests for exemple: there are 5. After 5 errands (fetch this/kill that), you go from the suspicious new guy to being the big boss of all mages. That is short.

See, the problem is that you are playing OTHER quests and figure "look how long it takes me to complete this guild's quests!". Its a bit like saying that it takes weeks to go from New-York to New-Jersey because you are going North through Canada, west till the rockies then back south to the states and east till Jersey. Would you consider that a valid argument, or would you tell the guy to stop being dumb?

I never rush through any Elder Scrolls game, but in comparison to both Morrowind and Oblivion, i felt the guild quests were very short.

I didn't finish the College questline because I was playing a DiD character and he ended up dying during one of the quests but at that point I was having quite some fun completing the guild's quests and it didn't feel dull at all. Without giving anything away I can say I was going after a certain staff when I died.

But then again I take my time and I don't rush things.

Frankly I dont think many people are rushing in skyrim.

Its just that somehow the explorers (those players who just like spending their days exploring/dungeon crawling) seem to think that doing anything with a goal in mind is rushing. "What's that, you wanted to work on your guild's quests? Lol, your fault for actually aiming for something [censored], shouldve been exploring more!"

Its even sadder when they start comparing us to WoW....

So the people doing the story-based quests and hoping there were more of them are closer to MMO players then the people just grinding repetitive generic quests? Ooooooh the irony is thick in this one!


Again: it has nothing to do with rushing things. This is a game where you are supposed to be able to decide what you want to do, so they should have taken into account that some players would like to complete a quest line without running 50 generic errands in between.

As for the quests: they are fun themselves, no one said they felt dull. What feels dull, is when you are named Archmage after 5 of them. "Hey man, who are you, fetch this, wow want to be our boss?"

Well yeah it's okay. If I know what I'm getting into, and they don't lie to me about what they are, it's my fault if I still sign up and can't handle it.

When Fable 4 comes out, I will not play it and you won't see me on Lionsgate's forum protesting (insert complaint) that isn't up to standard with the previous titles. Why you ask? Because I fricken played Fable 3, I know what their "norm" is and I can't live with it. So I vote with my wallet and my time.

In truth, I had vowed NEVER to buy an ES game again after that crapadoodle that was Oblivion but after a year of hype from my son, showing me the videos of Skyrim on Youtube and him freaking out about the "Creation Engine", I changed my mind.

And so far, after nearly 200 hours with 2 different characters, I'm enjoying the game world and combat enough that (with a lot of RP) I'm able to ignore the 5 billion things that are wrong with the writing, the dialogue that alternates between snooze city and laughable and voice acting that actually makes Mark Meer (Comander Shepherd) not seem that bad after all.

So yeah the game is flawed as hell but that's typical Bethesda. So far It's managed to hold my attention. That of course is subject to change.

Exactly, I could make solving (X + 2 = 4) into a long drawn out process. I could write the "-" below the left hand side, and then go and play Final Fantasy VII from beginning to end. Then come back and add the "2" next to the minus sign, and then go level up from 1 to whatever the max level is in your favorite MMORPG. Then come back and start working on the right side etc. This only means that they recognize the length of what we actually want to do is short and for some reason seem to be trying to convince us (or maybe themselves) that there is an appreciable length.

Yeah... I was hoping to see the questlines being the same length as Oblivions in written quests with some radiant ones to fill in the spaces and get you to gain ranks more realistically, but instead most of them are just 6 to 10 quests and optional and extremely basic radiant quests.

Is that what I said?

Its not the length of the questline that bothers me, it is other factors.

The Mages Guild Faction was a disappointment, I can become Archmage with only having thrown one spell (in training) and having no real skill at magic. What happened to all the ranks and rank level requirements. To become the head of any organization you need to do a lot of work AND actually be qualified. I did not rush through, I am old and I never rush anything. It was just short and made little sense. There was no requirement or need to get to know anybody in the guild. On a side note, why are all the mages in the wilderness and in dungeons automatically hostile? Shouldn't they be more like, "Oh, your the MF Archmage, maybe you would like to sit and have some tea. We could discuss magic string theory."

The Companion's quests were NOT equivalent to a Fighters Guild, it was basically a "join the werewolf faction" Again, you can do this without any appreciable melee skills. Why can't I join the Silver Hands and kill werewolves. Werewolves are "MONSTERS" after all, they eat people and kill children. The fact that werewolves are in charge of an inbred "band of heroes" should have been a source for some great conflict and some very interesting plot lines.

The Dark Brotherhood faction was better, but still flawed. A brotherhood of six people, really? I love what little character development there was, but why isn't there more? Why can I can become the listener so soon? Shouldn't I need to prove myself to the Night Mother and to the others? Why did I even get to meet everybody with doing lots of quests to prove I could be trusted (it is supposed to be a secretive organization). I should also have the basic skills needed to do the job. Why dispense with all the lore developed for Oblivion, I can see the DB not having as big of a presence as in Cyrodill, but why change how the organization operates. The Oblivion DB quest line was the best in the game, IMO. After becoming head of the DB, why can't you recruit new members?

The best faction quest line was the Thieves Guild, although a lot of it felt forced. When you enter Riften and encounter the right/wrong people you are kind of accused of being a thief, and forced into the questline. You get no real choice to decline the quest and make it disappear. Why can't I choose to kill off the TG? Again, no real requirements for advancement; I would think that they would want the head of the TG to be good a thief type stuff. There is really NO logical reason to make you the head of the Guild if you aren't more qualified than the others. After becoming the boss, shouldn't I be able to send out my minions to do the petty quests and collect my share of the take. There should be a significant monetary benefit to becoming the boss, otherwise why become a thief?

IMO, a successful Faction has these elements.
1) A plausible reason for existence and realistic relationships with other factions (I thought they did this well enough). The organizational structure should reflect the type of activities that the faction engages in.
2) An emotional connection with fellow guild members based on realistic character backgrounds, shared trials and tribulations, and realistic behavior. To do this REQUIRES you to interact with members of your guild by doing things for them or with them. A single radiant quest is not enough. All NPC characters need dark secrets or personal problems you can help them out with. You should need to gain the support of the members before advancing. The thieves guild did this best.
3) Reasonable entry requirements, and skill level requirements for advancement. Secret organizations are not going to open up their operations to you after a few minor quests. You should not know the inner workings until you are in way to deep to back out. If you are not qualified, there is no way that people are going to support your advancement (which could affect their personal livelihood).
4) More than one way to resolve quests, because........
5) Your actions in the Faction (and the world around you) should have realistic consequences. Becoming head of a faction should actually mean something, by being properly recognized and/or by being able to get members of the faction to do things for you.

After all of this, you might think I hated the game (which I do not). These are constructive criticisms, most of which I hope will be resolved by the modding community. I have always relied on the kindness of our modders.

Cheers!

Argenthart

Everything you say is valid other than the DB stuff. You obviously haven't read or spoken to many people in the Brotherhood or you would understand that there are solid reasons as to why the Dark Brotherhood is in such a dire/massively different situation from Oblivion. Try reading Cicero's journals/UESP they will give you all the background you need to know the story behind the Brotherhood between Oblivion and Skyrim. It would be cool to actually recruit people into the DB though a bit like you can with the Blades :goodjob:

The Dark Brotherhood and Thieve's Guild questlines are by far the most fleshed out offerings and I agree with the general sentiment that perhaps things ended up being a bit rushed as I cannot think of any other possible reason for this.

That said I'm currently doing a DiD playthrough as a Khajiit Berserker and perhaps my added caution causes questlines like the Companions to last longer- not that that should be necessary. Skyrim is still awesome though no matter what anyone says :intergalactic:

Awesome post, I think you hit everything that bugged me about the quests in this game. I agree with every thing you said.

So far, from my experience, there are two ways to go about the guild quest lines.

1) Do the MQ of the guild and get to be head in about 5-8 quests
2) Do 1 MQ mission, do the side missions, do another MQ mission, do more side missions, repeat

Now, #2 doesn't work with the Companions because you are forced to do a MQ mission after 1 SQ mission, other than that, I see no problem with it.

It also seems to me that people want to be forced to do things, that sounds off when talking about a Beth game IMO

The Thieve's Guild and Brotherhood questlines are fine, with interesting main missions and side-quests that are not boring. There is also a real sense of progression, especially as you renovate the Ragged Flagon.

The Companions and the College, on the other hand... Amongst Beth's worst questlines ever. And that's saying something.

I like the idea of the Wizard you are aiming to replace sending you off on 'test' quests to gauge your fitness for the position. Once all the 'tests' have been completed you could be challenged to a non-lethal dual against the existing ranker and if you defeat them they acknowledge your right to replace them. This would allow the designers to fix level caps for each rank and provide a real sense of achievement.

They could have done so much more that I can only assume that they ran out of time -- any other explanation I can think of just annoys me.

The quest lines are shorter in this game. I wish they was longer than they are, also I do not rush things I tend to drag things out in these games.