Guild Ranks.
I suggest something like raising skill Levels, with perks.

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My ideal in skill progression system:

You start off with the lowest possible of a skill level, and you do random jobs that makes you more experienced in that skill, and you advance your skill level as you get more experienced in that skill, until you finally reach the next level of mastery in that skill, and are able to choose a perk suitable for your current level of mastery in that skill, and so on...

At first it is easier to progress your skill levels, but gradually it becomes harder to do that, as each level requires you to repeat those tasks more or find harder tasks to provide a larger boost in the experience gained.

If you can find a skill master that knows of a particular trick/perk related to that skill, and is willing to reach you and you have enough experience in that skill, and maybe attend a quest for the master or help him with a problem, then he would teach you the skill perk for a price.

Those perks are dependent on each other like a branching tree, so in order to learn the higher level perk; you have to learn the lower level perk on that branch.

:)

We have guilds, just like just we have skills.

Those guilds have ranks that we can advance into, like we can raise our skill mastery levels.

We have a great quest system called "Radiant Story", which lets developers design "Quest Templates" in order to provide for us quests that have changeable parameters and/or let us have semi-random quests.

Does this anology give you any interesting ideas about the guilds and how to advance in them?

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If we translate my ideals in skill progression into a system for the guilds, it would become something like this:

You can not join guilds that require some minimum skill requirement, or other perquisites, until you provide those perquisites.

After you join a guild, you start at the pit bottom of the ranks available in that guild, and you are introduced to some local members, and given some sign/insignia/letter/item which would let other guild members or even other people recognize you around the province.

You can attach the insignia to your gear/mount and carry the other items with you, and any time certain members of the guild recognize you as a member of their own guild, they might have a semi random quest available for you to attend, and depending on the difficulty of the task related to your rank in the guild, you gain a bit of standing and fame with the guild.

There can also be some notice boards in some places that could potentially offer new semi-random tasks to complete, and report the result to a member to gain the bonus and additional guild standing. Thanks Glorious for the idea.

At some points, some members might have some manually designed specific quests that would be related to the general story of the guild and its members, and those specific quests would provide more boost with guild standing, in general, and the person who gave you the task in particular.

When you gain enough standing with a guild to advance in rank, you might be approached by some specific members with some special tasks, and the offering of a higher level rank if you could deliver, and provided the perquisite skills and/or items, and the like.

And it was only an example, and this could happen by any other possible method, depending on the situation, and the guild.

The first ranks would be easy to reach, but they would start to require more and more dedication for the guild, and maybe skill requirements, and at some ranks, your specific item/signet/insignia would have to be changed to reflect your advanced rank.

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In a local guild, your rank would be known to all the member, but if you have no attended any quest in another base, they would not know you unless you show off your signet/insignia, but after the first quest, you would be known in the new place as well.

People other than your guild members could recognize your signet/insignia as well, and it could affect their behavior toward you, positively or negatively, depending on their relation with your guild, and the high ranks could impress some people, and affect the outcome of some interactions/quests with them.

At each rank, you could gain some perks from the guild, like new places to rest, or new types of interactions with the members, like new services available, and the like...

Or maybe a guild master decides to teach you an actual skill perk, or any other "Fallout style" perks, or maybe give you a useful item, and so on...

Each new rank can unlock a few more types of repeatable quests that could be a bit harder than previous quests with more reward and more gain in guild standing when completed, and those gains can also depend on your performance and how well you followed the guilds ideals while completing the task.

And maybe if you decide to ignore your guild for a long time, or join a rival guild, and work for them, you might start to loose standing with your ex-guild until you actually loose a rank, and in your next encounter with them you would be informed of the fact, but in lower ranks this set back is so slow that it is almost non existent, but in higher ranks, especially in the highest ranks, this would become a fact to be considered.

...
I particularly like the idea of demotions if you neglect the guild, or work for a rival. This would make it much harder to rise to the top, since it would require your constant attention. Also it would make it much harder to become head of all the guilds, since you would be dividing your time between them, and while working for one guild you may lose standing in another. However I think you should only be punished for neglect at the very high ranks, and once you had been demoted out of those you can't sink any lower without actively damaging the guild (such as by killing a member or stealing guild property.) It would be very frustrating to take time out of a guild to do the main quest, to come back and discover I'm no better than an initiate again.

Reaching the ultimate rank in a guild would be possible in theory, (in some guilds), but in practice, it would require a lot of dedication, and maybe devilry in manipulating the other members, and so on... But reaching that rank could have some significant perks for your character that would be worth all the time and effort spent on it, and showing off the highest signet/insignia to other people would greatly affect their behavior toward your character.

This way no one can enter a guild and perform several quests and become the guild master and be done with it, as in the middle you have to perform a lot of initially menial tasks, and gradually raise your standing with the guilds and show a lot of dedication and provide the perquisite qualities and bribes, and persist and avoid helping the rival guilds and do not ignore them for long times, until you reach places that you want.

And in the mean while you would gain a lot of perks and income from the guild, and its members.

Edit: As I saw some common points between this thread and http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1149601-clanguild-insignia about the guilds, and their probable signets/insignias, I decided to borrow some ideas from there to include here.

P.S. http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1171001-my-take-on-guilds is another interesting thread about guilds and their relation with each other, by Badprenup.

I certainly hope we have to be proficient in certain skills in order to advance through the ranks. You could become Arch-mage in Oblivion by barely using magic at all. I'd like to see fairly basic and generic tasks to earn money and experience, such as collect 20 goblin skulls for the fighters guild. These tasks could be generated randomly and issued for as long as you are at that rank, and given at all guildhalls. Perhaps even a noticeboard from which you could take notes, like in the Witcher. Once you had raised certain skills enough, you would be eligible for promotion. Perhaps you would be given a more difficult task, this one not randomly generated but written and well thought out by writers. Once you had proven your skills by completing this task, you would advance in rank, making more challenging, but better paid jobs open to you.

Once you achieve a high level in the guild, that's when you get involved in the politics. That's when you would be tasked with things such as Oblivion's Blackwood Company or Necromancer's.

Certainly the best suggestion today. I really like some of the ideas you have.

I hope that basicly (first 5 (yes I know how much this is) ranks) will have 100% a bunch of randomly made quests... but they must relate to the guild... like a mages guild quest might be unlocking a chest for a merchant via spell... but for each rank increasemant you must first go on a writen quest, a long hard one... like clearing a stronghold of bandits (yes a stronghold not a ruin from OB) you know, having to charge at the stronghold as one of the 4-6 troups under your general and kill the enemy foot soldiers making way for your ram to destroy the gate... all this while getting shoot by the archers from the walls... then, once finally on the inside of the walls cut down all the bandits and finally find their leader missing... and (if good at searching), a hidin' exit, leading down to an underground tunnel... of course he/she should already be gone... now you'll get promoted, and if you found the exit (and reported it to your general) you'll unlock a later quest to deal with their leader... but before you unlock the special advancement quest, and a perk of choice (+2.5% damage with bows, blades, blunt, or axes), you must first have: Enough reputation (gained by completing random quests and (at later ranks) hand writin quests, lost be failing them.), high enough skills, and high enough atributes (I'll rufuse to admit they're gone 'till I hear todd howard say it)...
Like the idea? It would give you a lot more quests, and make you seem like much less of a...
...well, superhero who everybody knows is perfect without ever seeing him/her...

I hope there are certain requirements as to skill levels for ranks. Things like "The rank of Conjurer requires X Conjuring Level before you can be promoted", or having Archmage require high levels of many magic schools.

OK, updated the OP, and the poll, so if you have voted for the one-item poll, please change your poll answers.

Meh I like some of the ideas but some I don't see making it. I am a fan of the 'getting a perk at certain ranks' part though

I'd really like to see this. In Morrowind it seemed like you advanced with little to no work at all. You have to actually wonder how lazy everyone else was being to not be promoted, considering you were already at the disadvantage of being an outlander. Even if generated 'day-to-day' tasks weren't all that important at release, it would set the foundation to mod in a more thorough system.

Heh, we were writing the same thing at the same time. :goodjob:


Thanks. :dmc: :run:

OK, Updated the OP with new ideas from Glorious and http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1149601-clanguild-insignia.

I chose everything except option 5. I'm not a big fan of time limits on quests. I find it really tends to limit your freedom.

It would be nice if you had to do a lot more to be promoted, with skill requirements to the boot, considering like previous games you can still get all skills to 100.

Great minds think alike. :thumbsup:

Having read through the updated OP, I think you have some really good ideas. I particularly like the idea of demotions if you neglect the guild, or work for a rival. This would make it much harder to rise to the top, since it would require your constant attention. Also it would make it much harder to become head of all the guilds, since you would be dividing your time between them, and while working for one guild you may lose standing in another. However I think you should only be punished for neglect at the very high ranks, and once you had been demoted out of those you can't sink any lower without actively damaging the guild (such as by killing a member or stealing guild property.) It would be very frustrating to take time out of a guild to do the main quest, to come back and discover I'm no better than an initiate again.

Thanks and applied your idea in the OP, again. :tops:

I want to be able to become head of any guild I join but I want it to be hard as hell. I want it to feel like I earned it.

How about each of the normal three guilds have ten ranks. Only the five highest ranks have perks associated with them, like using the services, getting them for free etc.

But your character would only be allowed to attain 18 ranks total within the three guilds? You only get to rank 6 in each guild, obtaining 1 perk from each (i.e. *access* to their beds, but not for free). Or headmaster of one guild (rank 10), with rank 8 in another (3 perks) and none in the third or evenly split at 4 in each (0 perks).

So the first 5 ranks are only initiation ranks. These ranks will only gain you additional disposition when talking to people supporting respective guild, or discounts in bartering etc.

Edit: Headmaster in each is just outrageous and I hope they don't do that mistake again.

Rank 1: Only have to ask to join. WOW, wasn't that easy?
Rank 2: 1 Quest.
Rank 3: 2 Quests.
Rank 4: 4 Quests.
Rank 5: 8 Quests... See where this is going?
Rank 6 / 1 Perk: 16 Quests.
Rank 7 / 2 Perks: 32 Quests.
Rank 8 / 3 Perks: 64 Quests.
Rank 9 / 4 Perks: 128 Quests.
Rank 10 / 5 Perks / Headmaster and steady income: 256 Quests.

Oh, and each of these three guilds should have a "natural competitor", sharing similar properties. Increasing ranks with one decreases reputation with the other / lowers rank with the other.
Mages Guild / Whisperers
Thieves Guild / Robin Hooders
Fighters Guild / The Templars
Dark Brotherhood / Morag Tong
Ignore the names, just for illustrative purposes.

That would be a bit excessive, and I would suggest that each rang would be about 1.5 times harder than previous rank which would result in the last rank to be about 40 times harder than the first rank to increase, and with later quests that are higher level than the first quests and would give more boost to our standing with the guild, then it would be a balanced out development.

But for the rest, good ideas, and I would love to see opposing guilds, factions and clans that act against each other, and we could join them.

I wish we could combine our threads, I wrote a thread about guild relations last night and people were proposing something akin to this in my thread when I left for work. I'm going to link this thread into mine.

OK, I added the link, and I think the two threads complement each other.