So, in FO3 there was such a thing as gun bobbing/weaving, which reduced as your gun skill increased and finally totally disappeared when you hit 100. Combined with weapon spread, this would make you a fairly crappy shooter at lower levels, which is totally how it should be.

With the removal of skills in FO4, I've been trying to wrap my head around how that would work. From the modding videos it appears that "spread" has been replaced by "accuracy", which would come out to about the same. But with no skill governing your, well, skill, perks would have to take over control of the bobbing/weaving.

My worst fear is that there is no bobbing and weaving of your weapon right out of the vault since they've made it more player controlled and not character controlled. That would be very sad indeed, IMO, and with the amount of thought Beth has put into developing perks, I'm not totally convinced that there's room for 4 or 5 levels of bobbing/weaving reduction to make up for the loss of skills. I'd hate to step out of the vault and be Dirty Harry right off the bat, nailing ghouls at 100 yards with my pipe pistol =/

What are people's thoughts on this?

Not bothered, others rpgs, heck other tabletop rpgs has done a 0-5 or similar scale for gun skills, so I can't see how it couldn't work for Fallout.

Yeah, I'm not saying it wouldn't work, because that's how it was in FO3 and FONV, so that's actually how it's always been. The 0-100 was cut into increments, 25/50/75/100, though the FWE mod made every point count instead of just the big thresholds.

What I'm worried about is whether they've just gotten rid of this feature in FO4 in the name of cutting "unneeded" content.

Re-watching the gameplay video, he appears to hold the rifles completely still, no bobbing, but we don't really know what perks/level he is at that point.

There is a difference in reticle size on the different weapons he uses, which I'm assuming reflect the weapon's accuracy. Perhaps there are perks that then just reduce the reticle and there is no bobbing at any point =(

Doubt it, Todd said there was character numbers under the hood, even with smoother combat

There's also recoil (the reticle getting larger when you move/fire/fire on auto, then getting smaller again as you recover). Some of the mods seem to effect that, and there are some Strength perk images that look like they might apply. Or might apply to sway/scatter. Or not. We'll have to see.

edit: but yeah, I thought the way gun skill/etc reduced that sway and improved accuracy was done well in FO3. Of course, then there's all the threads moaning about how "terrible" the shooting mechanics were in FO3/NV. Which I don't agree with. (But apparently my standards are terrible, since when I listed other FPS's that I thought were also fine, I got replied to with "well yeah, if you consider those 'good' shooters..." )

Yeah, recoil was kinda missing in FO3, wasn't it. I guess I should be optimistic, lol.

Maybe it's controlled by agility, since that governs finesse. I'm guessing weapon spread should be tied to your gun nut rank, for crafted weapons, or it's a fixed, intrinsic value of weapons you find.

Historically it's tied to the weapon, which I think it should be. There are certain things you're not in control of regardless of your skill level. Sorry, perk level. =)

The perks should then likely reduce the recoil and the amount of time the reticle takes to return to normal after shooting/running. But how does that tie into sniping, for instance? You can be a complete tard with a rifle, but if you're shooting from a stationary position, the reticle should be at normal and you'll be the perfect sniper?

You need to have extensive experience with competitive FPSs to know good shooting mechanics. FO3 shooting was terrible not so much because of its mechanics (which can vary greatly even between iconic shooters like counter-strike and call of duty), but because of a shoddy game engine (very high latency when shooting, micro-stuttering, wonky mouse sensitivity if you didn't tweak the .ini, etc.).

Example of a shooter with terrible shooting mechanics is Rage, which is really scary given that it is well known that BGS consulted with id. For starters, Rage has humongous cones of fire (weapon spread), but to add insult to injury, the weapons become even more inaccurate the higher the difficulty, meaning that at the highest difficulty even the sniper rifle can miss on a perfectly aligned headshot. This is even worse than bullet sponges, because those at least let you see your weapons hit, whereas in Rage I felt like I was shooting muskets. But at least the engine was responsive and everything felt smooth.

There are a number of perks that impact your gun skills, like Commando, Rifleman, Gunslinger, Gun Fu, as well as some unknown ones (S7 & S8). some affect damage, but I'm sure others affect accuracy, recoil reduction, etc. There are also likely SPECIAL stat-based modifiers. We also know that there is an option to hold your breath with sniper rifles, which implies that there should be some weapon sway that can be reduced.

Going from a guns skill to perks in F4 is a major step up for Fallout.

You can can be an expert pistol shot and only a fair long arm/rifle shot just because you haven't practices much with long arms/rifles.

Same for heavy weapons.

With perks, if you are an expert with pistols and heavy weapons then you just take the perks that apply to those.

The perks provide clear in game advantages to anyone (PC or NPC) who have those perks.

Plus perks make it much clear and provide better feed back as to what having the perk does in game compared to having a 60 guns skill compared to an 80 guns skill.

And if you decide you need to get better with longarms, then you can do so over several levels.

Tie that to much better FPS mechanics and stats actually making a difference and you have not only a better FPS game, but a much better RPG game.

I have basically no FPS experience so I don't have any frame of reference other than FO3. But SPECIAL being tied into the shooting would definitely make me sleep better at night, as well would proper gun related perks that arent just "do 20%/40%/60%80% more dmg!" or "reduce rifle sway by 20%/40%/60%/80%" etc.

I don't know about weapon sway - could be that it's in, but not stat governed or at least not governed by the main "skill" perks (that is: Gunslinger, Commando, Rifleman, Big Guns, possibly Sniper, and possibly some perks for Energy Weapons). Recoil isn't just about the reticle getting wider as we fire, we do see some actual kickback and moving around of the reticle too.

From what I've seen, it seems like the combat is going to be just as stat heavy as it was in Fallout 3, but in much different ways - it scales based on a ton of different perks and the mods you add to your weapon. Hell, I wonder how the numbers will compare to the original Fallouts.

yeah remember all the weapon mods

Yeah, I'm sure there will be some effects from mods, but I'm thinking specifically about the PC skills. Mods don't make up for lack of skill. At least not 100%.

Bethesda has said that they are tyring to include more than just a plus 20% bonus for each rank.

Strong Back includes the ability to Fast Travel while Encumbered at Rank 2 and Run while Encumbered at Rank 3, above and beyond any carry weight bonus.

So the Automatic weapons perk might reduce recoil and get a reduction in chance to jam or a reduction in weapon wear and tear since an expert with automatic weapons can be expected to better maintain the weapon and to use controlled bursts to keep the weapon on target while keeping it from overheating which reduces the chance of jamming and the wear and tear on the weapon.

The sniper perk might allow you to hold your breath to reduce sway while higher ranks of the sniper perk might let you hold your breath longer and or increase the zoom of the snope.

An example for lockpicking would be a reduction in the chance a lockpick would break and later ranks would reduce the chance you would jam the lock with a broken lockpick.

Nothing definite yet, but I would expect some sort of bonus ability with all the Skill perks, even if it is just a minor bonus for having all 5 ranks.

The point is to make the Sole Survivor to play very differently depending on not only which perks he has but also if he only has a couple of ranks in the perk or has all the ranks for the perk.

Does this mean you could theoretically carry infinite loot? I'm, uh, asking for a friend.

That would be kind of OP... Maybe it means that you can sprint while encumbered, rather than doing the never-ending jog.

I've been stumping for a reactive reticule that changes according to battlefield conditions (like recoil, aiming, etc) and modified by relevant stats for quite some time.

If that ends up being the case, then I'll be a happy Dweller. There's a lot you can conceivably tie to the size of the reticule, situationally. For example, STR could affect how well you recover from recoil, AGI could make it tighten quicker or give you less spread while moving, PER could tighten the whole thing considerably, and so on.

Not saying that's going to be the case by any means, but it'd be cool...

I'm not too worried about the mechanics of the Perk system. I'm sure we'll have plenty of combat Perks that will improve our usefulness with all manner of weapons. It just remains to be seen what the "baseline" level of proficiency you're going to start out with is going to be. Personally, I wouldn't mind if starting out the game with no notable Attribute levels or Perks if you're able to generally hit things you're pointing at. Just advancing my character to be able to be better at these things will be enough, I think. If I go from "boot camp cadet" to "world's deadliest shot" within the scope of the game, I'm not going to miss out on "which end do I point at the bad guys" levels of proficiency.

According to the article, extra ranks of the Gunslinger perk "up the range of pistols, add a chance to disarm enemies, and even instant limb crippling shots." - Extra ranks of Commando and Rifleman presumably do their own unique things, too.

I personally interpreted this to mean if you are carrying too much you can still walk, just very slowly, and with this perk maxed out you can fast travel while carrying too much, and even run (normal speed) by consuming action points until the action points are gone, then it's back to the slow crawl until they recharge. I don't think you can sprint (faster than normal speed that consumes action points even when not carrying anything) when your carrying too much.

From an RP perspective, as a veteran of the Resource Wars, the Sole Survivor would have enough experience in using guns to not suffer the same jitteriness that a Vault native or a blank-slate-with-head-trauma would. Just sayin'.

Oh yeah, that too. They explained it, you spend AP in order to move at a normal pace. So I guess it's like sprinting while encumbered, but instead of sprinting you're just moving normally.

Gods know I would have loved that perk moving stuff around in Hearthfire.

If the military background thing turns out to be true, then it would make sense for you to be popping ghouls at 100 yards.