Gunpowder and explosives? Sure...

ANY type of firearm. NO.

Playing the Devil's advocate here, but you're point of if this theoretical gun's job is already covered by other long-range weapons perfectly well, then what's the point of including them in the game seems terribly flawed to me. If this is true, then why include a, let's say, special type of sword? It's job is already covered just as well through other close-range weapons and swords, so there's really no need to include it. But that's wrong. It's not just about if there's something else that can accomplish the same goal. It's about options. Just because this gun basically does the same thing as other long-range weapons doesn't mean that it's useless. It's called having options.

Flame on?

Not even a http://etc.usf.edu/clipart/14200/14263/hand-cannon_14263_lg.gif? :cryvaultboy: Or even a http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Chinese_Fire_Lance_with_Pellets.JPG/416px-Chinese_Fire_Lance_with_Pellets.JPG (fire-lance)?




I know that comparing real world development to Elder Scrolls development is a moot point...I mean, the Dwemer had skyships, and steam power, and robotic sentience (at a sophistication which, arguably, we haven't even reached yet in the real world, though I suspect magic is heavily involved). Firearms vastly predate the origins of all those things...and yet they haven't been developed? I think your point is fairly obvious. I was really just trying to argue what guns might be like if they're introduced. The Dwemer didn't have planes before airships, and they didn't have electric power before steam power. So, I think there is still some sort of pattern as far as technological development goes in the Elder Scrolls.

Not that magical? Are you serious? A race that powered its mechanical Centurions with magic, created powerful enchantments, and were noted for blending tech and magic, a race that attempted to transcend mortality through magical means: not that magical? I think you're missing a few small but important details here and there. Of course, Dwemer gunpowder would still be fitting in a way, due to their other talents, and the satchel charges are canon (even if they're not "cannon").

The main reason that gunpowder replaced the bow in Medieval and Renaissance warfare is "training time". It didn't take a lot of skill or practice to point a gun in the general direction and ignite the charge; bows took years of training and constant practice to be able to use effectively. Crossbows had the similar advantage of the reduced training needs, but were VERY slow to reload, unlike in MW, where you can spam bolts for maximum damage with a barely-cocked crossbow, like a machinegun.

It seems logical to me that after 200 years, Tamriel's alchemists would figure out that certain combos of chemicals go boom when you light a spark near them. Personally, I like the idea of the world growing and evolving, and not being permanently stuck in a field somewhere in medieval Britain. But I think that guns, if present, should be implemented sort of like crossbows were in Morrowind-- hard-hitting, but clumsy, slow to reload, and requiring rare, expensive ammo.

Another option is explosives as a logical next step in the evolution through the games of the Alchemy skill (just potions in Morrowind, potions and poisons in Oblivion, potions/poisons/explosives in Skyrim/wherever). Satchel bombs, thrown grenades, and yes, gun ammunition would all provide more options for combat and exploration.

EDIT: Damn, ninja'd by about 500 people.

Nope, any sort of control explosion to propel a projectile is completely not fitting for the world TES is taken place in. But like i said, gunpowder is OK, its an uncontroled (controled to a degree) explosion and no projectile involved. It has a practicle use rather than just for killing someone, like landscaping.

Well, I wouldn't say it was the main reason, but it was a reason. At least in the case of longbows. But I'd say the most important reason that guns replaced crossbows and longbows is simply they were more effective for the job that needed done. That is, countering the dense phalanx-style infantry that was dominant in Europe at the time (you know, the pikemen who helped put an end to the dominance of the Knight?). Piercing power wasn't needed. Pikemen wore very little armor. Accuracy wasn't needed. Pikemen stood in dense infantry lines---kinda hard to NOT hit anyone. Crossbows were excellent for taking out heavily armored knights perched atop a fast moving horse. But they weren't nearly as effective at inflicting maximum damage to a phalanx of pikemen.

Another reason guns were adopted is because of the popularity and gimmicky feelings that came with them. Guns were the "new thing" and they came in with the colorful outfits and armies of the Ottoman Empire and the Renaissance. Monarchs were very aware of their appearance to other countries, and adopted guns and uniforms because they didn't want to appear to other monarchs as backwards (and hence, weak). Furthermore, guns were expensive to buy and maintain, and hence became the adornment of armies and a way to flaunt imperial power. The more guns you had in your army, the richer and more formidable you would appear to others.



Well, to tell you the truth, the fire-lance was crude enough to just about be a explosion on the end of a stick. Albeit one projected into your opponent's face.

Pelinal's armor was incredibly advanced in the 1st era - legends have it as being "from the future".

I disagree about the disadvantages. Their range is not much less that an arrow, although the accuracy may be less at that range. Speaking of accuracy, while a master archer will be more accurate than a master musketeer, amateurs are much more easily trained with guns (and crossbows) than traditional bows. And you certainly can introduce guns without the inherent "real world" changes, because, this isn't the real world.

My biggest disagreement with guns is just for the "design" of the game. I don't think it properly fits in with the series. However, if I were to make an RPG, it would be very tempting to include gunpowder weapons.

For one, they are more powerful at short range. It might be hard to take out a charging bear with one arrow, but one .75 caliber musket ball has the stopping power to do so. You get a larger number of possible characters to roleplay, such as Imperial Witchhunters styled on the Inquisition and Conquistadors, pirates, and characters from the famous Alexander Dumas novels.

However, in order to limit their use (so that a majority of the game still takes place in a medieval setting) I would suggest several things. The guns themselves should be expensive. On the level of daedric weapons. (Also, money has to mean something, unlike in Oblivion where it grew on bandit shaped trees.)

Also, they should need repairs often, become dirty or broken after only a few shots. The ammunition (gunpowder at least) would be very expensive as well. A single arrow might cost 1 gold, but a single charge of powder might cost 20 or 50; once again, money must have real value.

Finally, the powder and the gun should be vulnerable to the environment. If you fall in a river or are attacked with water based magick, it may not work. This requires several factors which Bethesda has never touched on, the environment itself and then game mechanics to get around it (such as boats)

So, your character may have an advantage one minute because of his powerful weapon, but upon fleeing from his enemies, he may risk being over taken searching for a boat or bridge to cross the river ahead of him, or risk damaging his advantageous weapon for a more speedy and stealthy get away by jumping in and swimming.

The Numidium had nothing to do with gunpowder. and bombs wouldn't hurt it: it is litterally a god made from the combined souls on an entire race.

There is Sulfur in Redguard (its red for some reason) and there are Dwemer explosives. BUT THERE IS NO EXISTING LORE ABOUT GUNS!!!! There are supposedly Cannons in Sentinel, but tehey (in my opinion) concentrate magic.

In history, the first cannons and guns and such actually came around about the same time when steel armor was semi-common.

Of course, cannons would be inaccurate, rare, and should be limited. They should probably be kept out of the games for the most part.

Even though it worked for Tribunal, I would have preferrred that the collapsed rocks were just excavated away, or fulcrum moved by a spear. To me, gunpowder added to any fantasy game with archaic elements (bows, crossbows, spears, swords, etc.) makes it too easy to progress it into some sort of game evolving from the fantastic elements, such as magic. Didn't big "B" already have Sea Dogs for this?

Gunpowder ruined the Lord of the Rings film adaptation for me. I would have much preferred the Fire of Isenguard to have been the magic is should have been, with not a single alchemical tie to anything in our contemporary world, even if of medieval origin.

For me, and me alone, the Dwemer almost took away from the game because it possessed elements such as steam generated electricity, incandescent bulbs, and many other technical advances which sometimes removes the general 'feel' of the world and slams one back to your room or apartment. I'd rather keep our fletchers, candlemakers, and smiths the way they are. Adding even rudimentary guns means that instead of tavern talk worthy shots at Cliff Racers, we get them blasted for the most part out of the air. Add a single shot gun or cannon, and before long, those that wanted that may want to expound that further to buck shot and automatic arms. For me, that's not why I play and enjoy Morrowind. Coming from the nightmare of living amongst constant gunfire in the cities and in life, the last thing I want is that in my fantasy. I won't judge those that do cater to it, but I honestly feel that there are more than enough black powder infused games out there than to try and mix the two in Morrowind, forgoeing magics for early technology. The beauty of such a mod inspired game is that there is probably already a mod out there that might give you that. After all, there are mods that add a Corvette to the game, and the Master Chief from HALO. A mod with guns for those that must have them isn't that large a stretch.

Well, it seems that the Dwemer did create some sort fo a gun powder or a similar substance, but it could only be found in one specific ruin, so I guess that it was not all that used even among the dwemer. Remeber that even they prefered to use magic. Their centurions (probably their greatest war machines) used raw power in melee and bolt like projectlies for ranged attacks. No guns or anything near them. It might be sure that some guy did rediscover the dwemer secrests (although it would be very difficult taken into concideration how little is known about dwemer language). Some alchemist might discover this on his own, but the question is why. In the land of TES, every and each guy can cast spells and with enough training become a very decent mage. No ressources spent. However, creating fire arms cost money and material, training with them costs material and their use (especially in the early stages) is very limited. In our world the fire arms were created because thery were more powerful then the concurrent technology, but TES has magic that is capable of far more then any fire arm or exposive can do. So I really cannot see a point in developing something that would be less efficient than what we already have.
As far as I know (and I might be wrong in this as I'm far from being a lore ninja), the dwemer were a very magical race (probably comparable in this aspect to the Altmer), but they liked technology as well. Not as a mean to compensate for lack of magic but form a pure fascination. They might create gun powder and steam machines for the very fun of it and to see what works, but I guess that in case it was important, they would rather use magic as it was far more powerful. And remember that even though their creations in Morrowind seem to be technical only, they are powered by powerful magic not only technology.
So, to sum up, I really do not think that guns would benefit TES. I agree with the majority that some unique artifact steam-powered cross bow might work (the only purpose would be to give the mods a source to create weapons for those who wish to combine TES and Fallout). As far as explosives go, I wish more to see some more interresting effects of magic. That can cover "blowing things up"

http://kotaku.com/5388787/elder-scrolls-novel-potentially-confirms-elder-scrolls-v I'd be a bit surprised if there weren't any advancements in technology.

Well, they haven't really advanced all that much since the 1st Age. Magic is the problem. One of the characters in Redguard said that magic was the "crutch" of the world, and was the reason why no one had ever approached the level of technological development that the Dwemer had.

There is no need for extensive technology in a world of magic. The only reason technology would advance would be for practical uses like agriculture or architecture. Advancements in those subjects would develop slowly too.

You see, now you've got me thinking about magically stabilized nitroglycerin charges bringing down the walls of Vivec city...........

Also, if magic is THAT superior, as I admittedly say it seems like, then how are standing armies of sword wielding warriors able to exist? All I'm saying is, while flintlock is an exaggeration, primitive explosive weapons could have a part to play in TES, perhaps giving a magically stunted race or nation the edge they need to make a massive impact. I can see the hand cannons mentioned above being in the hands of chameleon-cloaked Argonians, who proceed to open fire on an unsuspecting legion.

Pretty much all moot considering ya expecting that the Elder Scroll world to progress like our world. We have no magic to start out with and to progress with as well, not to mention if we did, we probably not be using such technology we have right now.


I say deadvancement. Ya know, the fact that the current time in ES is alot less advance as it was in the past. Worth mentioning that the world is still in a heap of crap with alot of conflict with the empire split up and all.


Because there isn't that much mages to keep up and raise up an army with. Warriors and Archers are much cheaper and easier to raise up. Keep it mind this is a stigma of the npc and NOT the PC.

I dunno if you saw this post?

I skim pages; chances of misread happens. If ya want to consider that, Dwemer were more in making technology+magic that would benefit them to eventually become gods. It did not turn out that well. That say, I doubt that the Dwemer would construct such items like guns or even think of such concept that would make it even work. Still, I call moot on this.

Wouldn't mind gun powder and the like as a "magic" substitute for rouge type classes. Where you can set traps and maybe blast out rocks and stuff in the way. Or maybe an explosive arrow shot, but I guess that might come under alchemy in part.

Exactly, not everyone in Tamriel is a mage, so a large standing army armed with primitive gunpowder weapons would still have a huge advantage.

Also: Planting charges that have been set with magika could be have viable use in dungeon crawling, as many have mentioned, but also for assassination. Imagine the Dark Brotherhood sending you to plant a big satchel on a ship bearing a political figure from another province. Or church officials sending you to destroy a Daederic shrine. There are many possibilities.

Destroying a Daedric Shrine?! Blasphemy! :flame:

In all seriousness, I really hope they don't add gunpowder to the game. And if they absolutely must...NO GUNS!