I think I recall seeing wooden ruin or catapults and ballistaes outside of abandon castle at Daggerfall. I would not mind seeing those things again.


It usually lead to who have the most warriors/mages/tricks that would put the faction to their advantage; what works work. This is assuming that the faction have many alternate to fall back to. Having "technological development" to a point of making gun isn't what I would call a reason for its existance, as the alternates already exist. Plus, the nuclear arms of the Cold War isn't really a good point in "technological progress". Its more of a "Which country can bankrupt the other country by wasting all their money on armament First".


Not really. One, Orc are not that intelligent to figure out that putting a little medal in a pipe and it goes boom works. Two, they are more of frontline warriors and very good at it. They are not going to wuss out and stay in the backline. Three, its been mention time and time again that magic isn't always a ticket to victory in battle, but it helps. Four, their craftsmanship focuses and needed on their warriors as they need to have an edge fighting against the Redguards and the Nords in both sides; wasn't any recallment on making guns/cannons. Ballista and catapult, maybe, but not firearms.


If ya get to the end of Daggerfall....



I want to buy spears, morning stars, throwables, and a crossbow.


The other RPG that uses guns in their game are good at it because it fit quite well to their theme (namely Deus Ex, Fallout, Final Fantasy 7). Elder Scroll isn't one as its, to me, a magic and sword rpg.

Just no.. i dont like guns in fantasy games, it ruins the entire old/mystic feeling of the games.

I think there are just a lot of Elder Scroll fans who feel that introducing gun powder would lead to a natural progression towards having guns and grenades included in the series, which, IMO, would ruin the atmosphere and general 'feel' of the game. There are already so many other games, including RPGs, that have guns. I play the Elder Scrolls series because it doesn't have guns. It is one of the few places I can still go to escape from the real world and its modern methods of destruction, and guns draw too close of a parallel to the world we currently live in. When I want to shoot things and blow things up, I can play Fallout or Fable or Halo, for that matter. Why homogenize the Elder Scrolls to the point where it really isn't that much different from any other FPS-RPG? I'd much rather keep the current theme of the Elder Scrolls where sword and magic are the main methods of resolving problems. I would be highly disappointed if guns and the like worked their way into the Elder Scrolls universe.

Apparently, someone never read The Dark Tower series.

We should at least see some canons on city walls.

Yes we agree to disagree. We all have our opnions, and non of them are right or wrong. Sorry if I said you were wrong, but I should have said I disagree with you instead. :foodndrink: I know a crossbow isn't a gun but it would be the closest I would like to see in a ballistic type weapon.

Just curious, why would anyone in the TES universe would want a gun or more a musket what you describe. A fireball spell would be so much more accurate to aim and faster to reload and cast again. A musket I believe is not very accurate, and would take a long time to reload, that I don't see anyone really using it.

One thing I would love to see, from reading your post to hadez is I would love to see blunt weapons do like nock downs more that swords would. Or maybe a large hammer type weapon would smash skeletons eaier than a sword, a sword would be better agaisnt an imp because the fly fast so an hammer would be harder to get them. Stuff like that.


Just curious, with all the games out there that have guns, why would you want TES to have it? Would you want to see guns in Lord of the Rings? Just curious there. :wavey:

I like the idea of the TES universe growing and changing and advancing through the ages, as the real world does. It gives the world a sense of being alive, as opposed to being stuck in one period. With regard to your comment about all the other games that have guns, I can only really think of Fable 2 off the top of my head as a game that had guns in a fantasy setting in any way that worked (besides the Final Fantasy series, but that's a discussion for another day). There are gritty, "realistic" modern-day or futuristic FPSs (CoD), and there are colorful, campy, over-the-top "Fill the screen with lead and blood" FPSs (Bulletstorm) but that's not what I'm advocating at all.

To be clear, I wouldn't want guns in any modern sense of the word, but primitive rifles and muskets, as well as explosives like the Dwemer satchel charges in Tribunal, would add an extra layer to the combat and exploration. In terms of gameplay, if it's done sort of the way I'm thinking, it would provide a sort of middle-of-the-road alternative to melee and archery, where its range and accuracy are reduced from a bow, and its strength is less than that of simply smashing your foe with a mace, but it provides greater strength than a bow and greater range than melee. It's all about giving the player choices in how they want to play the game. AKA the exact same argument that people use when they complain about Oblivion being "dumbed down" from Morrowind.

To answer your second question, it again depends. If you mean the LOTR universe exactly as it's portrayed in the books, then no, I wouldn't, because it's static (in the sense that there's no great passage of time to allow for such technologies to develop) and so it would feel contrived if all of a sudden they had mass-produced guns for their massive armies. But considering that there was already explosive technology present (at least in the movies, I haven't read the books in quite some time so I don't quite remember) in LOTR, if you advanced it a couple of centuries, yes, I would expect some sort of development.

I think people who don't want guns are just afraid of change and experimentation. Why can't bethesda try something new? You may be happy sticking with the same generic lotr setting, but I want some development.

Nobody is afraid of change to the series, I think everyone has several things in mind that they want changed from the way Oblivion did them. Are guns a change for the better? Many of us think they are not.

They could also change the series so all races died but the Imperials. Are you just afraid of that change and experimentation, or do you think that is not a change for the better?

When you can cast a fireball in RL I will change my opinion about guns in TES. Not a flamethrower, magic induced fireballs.


Both?

I think killing evertone except imperials would be intersting. Just like the guns, though, it won't happen.

Please supply a source that shows that orcs are less intelligent than other races.

Ingame status usually reveal to be such. Its also a mentally that they are also warrior with a bit of berserker rage.

Orcs are a bit like really apt spoiled children. If things wont give to their ability they become enraged. Not the most studious type. The ones that do / did study were not in for general knowledge. They, again, are too impatient to be inventive.

It seems Orcs have yet to gain true acceptance into the empire. Stereotypes aren't good, you know.

I wish people would stop making arguments like this. If you don't want guns in ESV, you don't want guns in ESV. 'Arguments' like this make me want to invite you over to show you my broadsword IRL and duel with you so you can see and feel how real it is. Then I might take you to a museum so I can show you how real crossbows are. And how real chain mail armor is. Magic is the odd one out here. I can completely understand if guns upset the 'feel' for you. Or perhaps a good lore argument of why guns should be kept from TES. But I cannot understand the logic of keeping guns out of the game because they are too "real world" and not "fantastical" enough.






Yet somehow they are excellent armorers (and armory requires immense patience and skill) and maintain an entire city of iron despite the adverse elements. I would take the low intelligence in game with a grain of salt. It is clearly there to differentiate characters. Do you really think intelligence ONLY determines magical ability? Of course it doesn't. A person's intelligence governs all aspects of their life...

Off topic, but I don't think intelligence is a good attribute. A better one would be "knowledge", or how much education or experience you have had. Intelligence is hard enough to measure in the real world, as IQ tests rarely can ever predict a person's success or full mental capacity. At the very best, they test people's ability to see patterns and reason. And I've realized, taking them before, that my accumulated knowledge actually helps me quite a lot in taking the test. Now is someone who is without that knowledge, and who ends up getting a lower IQ score than I do because of that, stupider than I am?

In the long run, unless one is a user of the Elder Scrolls games only on a gaming console, the entire desire or deterrent of black powder weapons in the game can be rectified with Bethesda's usual encouraging of modding the game. If you have the need for it, then either mod it, or have it modded. If it doesn't appeal at all, the same. That's really the crux of the series, these past editions. They give you a great game, then give you a toolset. Whatever happens after that falls into personal preference. That said, just taking a good hour look at the thousands of mods made for both sets of current games shows you exactly how diverse the needs are with the game. Some want tech, and drive a car through Morrowind. Some want the utlimate in realism, like a Spec Ops game, where you are killed by a single arrow, or drown from too much gold in your pocket. We won't even touch those that just feel the need to change the game entirely into the other games they play, ripe with banners all over the towns from rival design studios. If you really want to see the epitome of a personal preference, read the mod, Chernobvardenfel, which removes all the humanoid NPC's from the game entirely save for the God-Kings and the fauna.

An addition such as this that would affect the console gamers, considering the amount who play it for its original flavor if you will, might be best to leave the option as something that can be toggled, or downloaded, rather than change it for a smaller cross-section who want black powder.

The comment about not accepting "change" is subjective really. To accept "change", wouldn't those changes at least have to be remotely desirable? Look at the novel written on the series. Some liked it, and embraced it as canon almost immediately. Others read it, and discarded it because in some ways it felt as if it was written almost on synopsis and a Morrowind Cliff Notes. Again, personal preferences regarding change. Not everyone views changes as all good, if the changes take away from the enjoyment, rather than enhance it. An honest look at how a new writer to a series kills off characters just to shake up the work, or a film writer does the same, shows just how subjective visual changes can be, to those that enjoy any specific genre.

Luckily, at least for those on personal computers, if they continue including modification software, then you can have whatever you want, if you either have the skills, or can convince someone with them to embrace your idea.

That was a half joke based on this. [] And general Orismer nature throughout the games.
I am sorry if it offended.
Truth be told I just don't want guns to see the light of day in TES.

And for the broadsword, I am not stupid.


Intelligence in terms of aptitude / out of the box thinking. If you want to break that down even further it is largely a cultural thing. The Orcs know what they are doing with the armor, they just won't turn it into a gun.
[] They also practice smashing things all day with the armor. That does not happen with guns.


[edit]

I wouldn't know about the empire. I hang out in a backwater part of Vvanderfall. :frog:

There are times and places for guns. TES just isn't it. On the other hand, I'd rather not see "psionics" or anything like that in Fallout. Different games, different feels, different reasons to play. One game structure. I'm down with that.

If we were going over a hypothetical new fantasy IP that would START medieval, I don't think too many people here would necessarily feel this way: "No guns, or I stop playing". However, they might, depending on the setting you gave them.

Here's how I see it: The Elder Scrolls has cultivated a mystical aura to it. Guns? not mystical. Numidium? mystical and mechanical. Amulet of Kings? Mystical. Bloodmoon Prophecy? Mystical. Chimer -> Dunmer? Mystical. Guns? chemical. Adding guns detracts from the core of "Mystical".

Now, take (for common appeal) The Wheel of Time. Part of the "setting" stipulates that the world is our world, but in the future and the past. Therefore, it's totally gun-compliant, as well as being character driven in a way TES can't be (hint: name the race of the Champion of Cyrodiil. Was the Nerevarine male or female?). Guns might change the world in-story, but it can't touch what the world is.

Summary: fans want TES to be mystical, Fallout to be set in a dystopian retro-future, and probably would expect any "new" Bethesda IP to likewise preserve its core, but none of this is fundamentally incompatible with a dynamic, progressing world. In fact, at the start of Arena, we had an empire that was in shambles, three mortal gods in Morrowind, a dismantled giant robot, and the Amulet of Kings. Umaril was hiding in Meridia's realm, Sheogorath and Jyggy were one and the same, etc. Now, the Numidium is no more, Dagoth Ur and Almalexia have been cast down, Vivec is missing, and Sotha Sil has long since left his body. Umaril is destroyed, Jyggy is no longer Sheogorath, the Amulet of Kings is destroyed... and the Empire has reformed and fallen. It's not so much that the TES world doesn't progress as we have clear progress, but no roadmap to follow. The progress is not technological, but something much more basic to the world. Bethesda just hasn't let us in on the big secret.

Oh, okay. I wouldn't say it offended though. Just that it...exasperated. I've heard something similar too many times.

Having a Proud Warrior Race Guy lifestyle doesn't stop them from being intelligent. One look at Gortwug will tell you that, hes as shrewd a politician as any of the other races.

NEVER!! It would ruin lore and trying to load a flint lock musket fast enough to save your skinny hide from a charging deadroth would be funny for those who want gunpowder. I would sit on a hill laghing as you franticly try to load the musket spilling the powder and then droping the musket and run like a school girl while I shoot a bunch of arrows realy fast and its dead. The you wuld have to repay me for saving you.

Oblivionfreak, you silly moo. This is a sure way to get yourself a warning/ban.

I knew I'd find your name here. Stop being Immature. your spamming the first page with old threads.

What are you trying to accomplish?

An account ban, perhaps? :shrug:

The entire concept of TES is that it's an old-world primitive game. To add guns would make it not TES, but some knock-off TES with guns added. It would never be the same game again.

Perhaps there could be one little quest where you find the only one in existence and you have to throw it in a volcano.

EDIT: Ohh, sorry, didn't know this was an old thread. I wondered how this could've popped up in 30 minutes and have gotten that many replies.