Imagine an ES plot line in which a group of powerful mages were striped of their ability to use magika because they're criminally insane. Still being insane intellectuals, they escape prison and go to Black Marsh where they begin development on the next best thing from destruction magic: Gun Powder. They make a deal with most of the local Argonian (tribes?) that for their service (gathering materials, production labor, dry storage and transport of said black powder), they would be armed with primitive firearms to take on slaving parties from Morrowind. When production is stepped up to full swing, Morrowind is invaded by musket toting Argonian guerrillas. The player would come into this somewhere, in the middle of a magic vs. technology conflict with all of Black Marsh and Morrowind as a map.

My point is, however unlikely that it will happen, Bethesda could think of something really cool to do with the idea of gunpowder in Tamriel.

I don't like this. How can you be stripped of your magical powers? Must be a bloody good silence spell.

Magic flows through every mortal through the stars. they say magic words and wiggle thier fingers to cast spells. It's not as simple as stripping thier powers. A silence spell works by stopping the character speaking. Perhaps they could have thier tounges cut out, or something, but I doubt they could be restrained if they're powerful mages. and, I'm pretty sure restoration would help them regrow thier tounge?

But I do agree with guns. I don't want every character to have a gun, of course, but I'd love to see a single dwemer artifact that turns out to be a gun. As long as everyone doesn't have it, we're all happy as larry. I'm actually happy as long as we have crossbows. At least they can be modded in easily.

I'm not sure how they could be magika neutered, but mages would logically be the only ones smart enough to come up with gunpowder, and they wouldn't need to if they could still cast. Other, seriously powerful magical figures would be involved in taking their abilities away. Perhaps a god?

Correctlion: Elementary Alchemists would be the logical discoverer(s) of explosive materials.

However, since magicka is easy and free, gunpowder would be super expensive, rare, and poorly developed.

Yes, but what army in Tamriel, magika or no, could easily defeat a force armed with rifles? Plate armored charges would only result in death, especially if the fight is taken to Black Marsh and Morrowind.

I'd think pretty much any army that had 50% of its troops trained to use heavy-duty Shield effects, 40% restoration, and the other 10% masters of Fire spells (not even Destruction as a whole) could wipe the field. See, Gunpowder has this little handicap called "you have to store it". Simple tactics, really: Half the army just "takes it", most of the rest keep them alive, and the remainder blast the stores of powder sky high. After that, it's a war of attrition, and magicka regenerates faster than gunpowder

I see the only use of gunpowder is maybe on that I forgot it's name it was like a big ass metal metal robot they had stepped on a lot of people. Then again to be effective on that thing it would take years of money and sweat . Let's keep it to magic people.

I'm tired of rifles in fantasy games, lately.

I could see gunpowder being discovered and developed, as far as lore is concerned. But, I wouldn't really like to have guns in the game. It would irk me.

No. If anyone found gunpowder anyways it would be the Dwemer. They just weren't that magical. I guess I'd be OK with a very rare, hard to get steampunk-esque blunderbuss. Use some mystical plot hole spackle to come up with a reason why it can't be replicated, add an alchemy quest where you learn to create the fabled, lost Dwemer blast powder, use some more plot hole spackle to explain why it's better than arrows or magic, and then you'd be done. I guess I'd be alright with that. But it depends on the spackling skills of Bethesda.

Edit: It would also be cool if you could use the powder as sort of an alternative to Magicka, or to augment your weapons. For example, rigging charges to trip wires or attaching fused packets to arrows. Or maybe even making a grenado. Or maybe you could somehow cover enemies in the powder (throw it, spit it, I don't know) and then use a fire spell for added damage.

Wow, you're right.

There were Dwemer explosives in Morrowind and it worked well.

I guess now that the Dwemer are extinct, the mechanical age in Tamriel has been put on hold. But, a single, high-powered artifact as a quest reward might work.

Or... bring back throwing weapons and add in some explosives. Dwemer grenades, jars filled with sulfur, jars filled with scorpions, etc. you can get creative, if you like. Just no rifles. We don't need another cheesy Fuedal Age Japan setting in a video game. It's been done to DEATH.

I, personally, would like someone at Bethesda to write a comprehensive article on what exactly Magicka is capable of in the Elder Scrolls. I KNOW it's not capable of everything, but I would like to know the limits of what you can do with it. I mean it would help us to know if this suggestion is just futile.

Hmm, well I'm no lore expert, but I know the dwemer dissapeard... perhaps a futre tes game could revolve around the dwemers return to tamriel. And maybe their not happy to have lost all their lands ect. That game could even have radio ala FO3. But personally, I think guns should stay in the fallout games.

Personally, I prefer the idea of gunpowder to specifically guns. I think there is a place for gunpowder and it could be a cool addition to the game, however guns I am on the fence about. Also, the Dwemer, for the most part, are extinct. But a lot of quests in the games featured creating and using things from extinct races. Like I said, perhaps an ancient Dwemer book was recovered that detailed the creation of some of their cool compounds and solutions, like gunpowder.

I highly doubt a return of the dwemer. The widly accepted theory is that they simply disintegrated. During tribunal, you find a lost dwemer ruin, where piles of ash are everywhere, with dwemer armour around it. It may be produced by thier "ascension", but I doubt it.

I think guns could have actually be developed by the nede, before they came to what we now know as Tamriel. Perhaps a single scientist came up with the idea, but died before he could get it out? Who knows. But I have to say that if guns are included, there should only be one lost, ancient relic.

Please leave guns for Fallout.
PERHAPS if there was one dwemer artifact I wouldn't freak out. But please, PLEASE do not make them anything resembling common.

Hmm. I'm pretty sure a group armed with rifles would be able to defeat most enemies as long as they a) were well-disciplined and lead by competent commanders b)weren't heavily outnumbered c)weren't surprised and d)weren't fighting mages. Magic has so many advantages, even over rifles. I remember being part of a discussion of what outcome a war between Wizards versus Muggles (in the HP universe) would lead to. There were some people who went on and on about guns being faster than wands, being more accurate, etc etc. But then someone mentioned that a simple impervius charm, cast upon oneself, would repel all bullets. And hence, in the absence of a surprise attack, guns were rendered useless. And, I'm afraid, that's mankind's main weapon.

Keep in mind that a large force of British soldiers, at the turn of the twentieth century, armed with the best rifles of the day, were overrun by a large Zulu force that had surprised them---a force whose main weapons were short spears, throwing spears, and a a few older gun models---at Isandlwana.

Either way, the Elder Scrolls wouldn't have rifles to begin with. Guns have been around for a long time, dating back to the 1300s in Europe (the so-called High Middle Ages) and in Asia dated back even further, to the 1100s. Gunpowder itself had been known about even before then. And despite such a long history of guns, rifles only really began being used in the 1800s. So if Tamriel were to get guns in the next 200 years (assuming that's when Tes V begins) they would be far, far, far away from having a rifle. If anything, they'd probably have a hand canon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_cannon .

And, I think it is worth noting, that even by the time guns largely replaced crossbows and longbows in Europe (1500s), crossbows and longbows remained largely much more effective than guns. Why were they adopted, then, you ask? Well, that is another discussion entirely, but lets just say they were adopted for reasons other range, accuracy, and piercing power (all of which bows were better at and remained better at for some time even after the adoption of firearms..).

I don't think you can really compare real world technological development to the Elder Scrolls. Remember, Pelinal Whitestrake was around in the First Era, long before the events of Oblivion, but his armor still looks like something from the Middle Ages. It's hard to predict technology in the Elder Scrolls setting.

There is gunpowder.

Besides the joke book in Daggerfall, your other source is in TES Redguard, where you see the ships, and they have cannons. I personally believe there is, but that's just me.

If there were guns, I'd say it would be an old 16th century Ottoman gun (something like it). It'd pack a punch, but it's aim would be bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s

AGREED!!! No gun's...yes i'v seen those cannons but it would not feel fantasy like to me

Again, guns I'm on the fence about. However a gunpowder like substance I think could have some cool applications in game.

For me, the question is "what does it add?" I don't see guns as adding much to the game, as their position is held just as well by bows, crossbows, and ranged magic. A gun primitive enough for the ES setting would be more of a hindrance than an advantage, as they have horrible range, take a long time to reload, and aren't accurate in the slightest. It would however have a deep impact on lore which would be a royal pain to reconcile. You can't introduce gunpowder without introducing the changes it brought to warfare, armor, fortifications, and society in general.

The Dwemer satchels added to the gameplay by allowing the discovery of new passages and new modes of exploration. Guns would just be another way to kill something from afar.

Gunpowder predates guns. Gunpowder (or other explosives) would add plenty to the game, and it has in Morrowind. you can have gunpowder without guns. Again, you could use it as an alternative to Magicka. It would allow warriors to still be warriors if they want to do ranged AoE damage, as well as allow rangers to augment there skills.

I would be okay with gunpowder alchemy, allowing you to effectively craft grenades, but then I want a whole offensive alchemy system where you can craft potions of all types that when thrown, explode into various area effects depending on the mixture.

I would like to see guns as in rifles and pistols, no matter how old-timey they are, NOWHERE NEAR TES. Their presence in games like Fable is more than a bit annoying and out-of-place.

I personally feel that the presence of magic makes guns obsolete and pointless, much more trouble than they are worth. Cannons are fine for naval combat, if not too many high-powered mages are available, but since magic is a part of daily like for Tamriel, gun-powder-based projectile weapons are mostly useless in infantry combat.

You need a few more OOOOOooooOOO's there and then I would agree with you.

TES+Guns=stupid :shakehead: