Guns vs. Energy?

Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:51 pm

I'll admit that it does have a higher crit chance then the CZ57, but it has less HP, it has slightly higher spread, it has a lower DAM and DPS and the highest amount of DT it can ignore is 10, which is the lowest amount for the CZ57.

I never knew it had a higher spread. Hmmm...
Still like Athenau said, with focus optics it can do similar damage (DAM and DPS) to CZ57 and with Camarader-E you get another 5 on top. Coupled with the double ammunition and higher crit chance and only slightly lower health (1500 vs 1600) the only real advantage of the CZ57 is 5mm intrinsic -10 DT and AP rounds with -25 DT. That's still a pretty good equalizer, though.
User avatar
Danielle Brown
 
Posts: 3380
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:03 am

Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:21 pm

I never knew it had a higher spread. Hmmm...
Still like Athenau said, with focus optics it can do similar damage (DAM and DPS) to CZ57 and with Camarader-E you get another 5 on top. Coupled with the double ammunition and higher crit chance and only slightly lower health (1500 vs 1600) the only real advantage of the CZ57 is 5mm intrinsic -10 DT and AP rounds with -25 DT. That's still a pretty good equalizer, though.

I know they're very comparable, but I prefer the CZ57 overall. The vanilla DPS is 390, but with all related perks it can nearly get up to 650. It does have half the ammo, but I usually find that whatever it is I'm shooting at is dead before I finish off my pack. To each his own.
User avatar
Jessica White
 
Posts: 3419
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 5:03 am

Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:16 am

I know they're very comparable, but I prefer the CZ57 overall. The vanilla DPS is 390, but with all related perks it can nearly get up to 650. It does have half the ammo, but I usually find that whatever it is I'm shooting at is dead before I finish off my pack. To each his own.


The only guns specific perk for the avenger would be hand loader which unlocks 5mm JSP ammo (1.3x dam, -10 DT) which is only slightly better than vigilant recycler's optimized ECP (1.3x dam, -5 DT), though with a much bigger condition penalty. Meanwhile the gatling laser benefits from laser commander, set lasers for fun, and Camader-E, as well as getting more benefit from crit boosting perks and gear.

Actually Camarad-E is pretty ridiculous as with that + laser commander you're doing 20.8 damage per shot before ammo modifiers.
User avatar
marie breen
 
Posts: 3388
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:50 am

Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:07 pm

The only guns specific perk for the avenger would be hand loader which unlocks 5mm JSP ammo (1.3x dam, -10 DT) which is only slightly better than vigilant recycler's optimized ECP (1.3x dam, -5 DT), though with a much bigger condition penalty. Meanwhile the gatling laser benefits from laser commander, set lasers for fun, and Camader-E, as well as getting more benefit from crit boosting perks and gear.

Actually Camarad-E is pretty ridiculous as with that + laser commander you're doing 20.8 damage per shot before ammo modifiers.

The downside to optimized ECP is that it only comes with Gunrunner's Arsenal so the actual thing 5mm JSP ammo should be compared to is max charge ECP. Max charge ECP does give a bit of extra damage, but it degrades the weapon a lot quicker then 5mm JSP ammo.
It actually sounds to me like the Gatling Laser needs all of those perks and the completion of Lonesome Road in order to be comparable to the CZ57 Avenger. That's my opinion at least, I've always been a guns man myself.
User avatar
James Baldwin
 
Posts: 3366
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:11 am

Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:48 am

The downside to optimized ECP is that it only comes with Gunrunner's Arsenal so the actual thing 5mm JSP ammo should be compared to is max charge ECP.

5mm JSP is a GRA ammo type so no, JSP should be compared to optimized ECP.

Max charge ECP does give a bit of extra damage, but it degrades the weapon a lot quicker then 5mm JSP ammo.

It also does more damage and negates the same amount of DT. Whether that's worth the condition penalty is up to you.

It actually sounds to me like the Gatling Laser needs all of those perks and the completion of Lonesome Road in order to be comparable to the CZ57 Avenger. That's my opinion at least, I've always been a guns man myself.


Incorrect. With all the perks the Gatling Laser does substantially more base damage and dps than the Avenger (not taking into account crits, which pushes the GL even further ahead). It's only with AP ammo against heavily armored foes that the Avenger wins. This isn't a matter of opinion, the numbers are clear:

GL base damage: 13
Chance to crit with light touch + laser commander + set lasers for fun = 19% (we can safely ignore the stuff that gets added in before the crit multiplier since it becomes negligible with the automatic weapons penalty).
GL crit damage with better criticals: 15
Total damage before perks + ammo: 15.85
Total damage with laser commander + optimized ECP + Camarader-E: (15.85+5)*1.15*1.3 = 31.17 (I'm not sure if additive bonuses get added before multiplicative ones, but it shouldn't make much difference either way in this case)
Total dps: 935

Avenger base damage: 13
Chance to crit with light touch: 5%
Avenger crit damage w. better criticals: 19.5
Total damage before perks + ammo: 13.98
Total damage w. 5mm JSP: 18.17
Total dps: 545.1
User avatar
Ella Loapaga
 
Posts: 3376
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:45 pm

Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:51 am

5mm JSP is a GRA ammo type so no, JSP should be compared to optimized ECP.


It also does more damage and negates the same amount of DT. Whether that's worth the condition penalty is up to you.



Incorrect. With all the perks the Gatling Laser does substantially more base damage and dps than the Avenger (not taking into account crits, which pushes the GL even further ahead). It's only with AP ammo against heavily armored foes that the Avenger wins This isn't a matter of opinion, the numbers are clear.

With all applicable perks and chems, the best ammo, 4 crippled limbs and health under 50%, no head shot, no SAC, no crit, no reload:

Gatling laser 67 54 dam, 1626 DPS
CZ57 55 dam 1650 DPS

-gunny
User avatar
Bad News Rogers
 
Posts: 3356
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:37 am

Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:07 am

With all applicable perks and chems, the best ammo, 4 crippled limbs and health under 50%, no head shot, no SAC, no crit, no reload:

Gatling laser 67 dam, 1626 DPS
CZ57 55 dam 1650 DPS

-gunny


Your damage numbers aren't consistent with your dps numbers, since both weapons have the same ROF. Specifically the GL should be at 2010 dps if you can get it up to 67 damage per shot.
User avatar
Jason White
 
Posts: 3531
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:54 pm

Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:33 am

Is anyone taking into account the minigun's stupid spin-up time? The laser gatling fires instantly. The minigun's spin-up may be short, but it's still a factor and makes actually firing it that much more annoying.

Queue
User avatar
Cameron Wood
 
Posts: 3384
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:09 pm

Your damage numbers aren't consistent with your dps numbers, since both weapons have the same ROF. Specifically the GL should be at 2010 dps if you can get it up to 67 damage per shot.

You are correct sir. I accidently posted the unique's dam rather than the correct dam of 54. I'm old, and the numbers on the spreadsheet are reeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaal tiny. :wink_smile:

-gunny
User avatar
DeeD
 
Posts: 3439
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:50 pm

Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:14 pm

You are correct sir. I accidently posted the unique's dam rather than the correct dam of 54. I'm old, and the numbers on the spreadsheet are reeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaal tiny.


Out of curiosity, what modifiers are you using to push the Avenger ahead of the GL? I'm not aware of any guns specific damage perks for the Avenger, while there are three for laser weapons. The only thing I can think of are JHP rounds against unarmored targets, and in my example above that still isn't enough to beat the GL.
User avatar
Jake Easom
 
Posts: 3424
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:33 am

Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:41 am

Going to assume he means Eye for an Eye and the +Damage one from Lonesome Road. At least I think there's a +damage one from Lonesome Road. :S
User avatar
Allison C
 
Posts: 3369
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:02 am

Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:00 am

Out of curiosity, what modifiers are you using to push the Avenger ahead of the GL? I'm not aware of any guns specific damage perks for the Avenger, while there are three for laser weapons. The only thing I can think of are JHP rounds against unarmored targets, and in my example above that still isn't enough to beat the GL.

HP. I don't rememver what else, but I can't recall anything else that sets the two apart. As far as laser weapons, other than laser commander, and the unconfimed to work correctly camarader-e (I did not include this. I have heard reports of it not working and haven't had the chance to test it yet), that would be the 3rd perk?

-gunny
User avatar
Cool Man Sam
 
Posts: 3392
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 1:19 pm

Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:04 pm

It actually sounds to me like the Gatling Laser needs all of those perks and the completion of Lonesome Road in order to be comparable to the CZ57 Avenger. That's my opinion at least, I've always been a guns man myself.

It just needs the Focus Optics to get comparable damage, but then again it's not a unique. Otherwise most perks would seem to be comparable since the CZ57 has a higher base DAM which gives it greater bonuses, while the GL gets Laser Commander, with Camerader-E getting it ahead in damage.
I wonder do Focus Optics get added before the perks, because that would mean that with Focus Optics the GL beats the CZ57 on pure DAM (ammo not included).
User avatar
lydia nekongo
 
Posts: 3403
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:04 pm

Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:14 am

It just needs the Focus Optics to get comparable damage, but then again it's not a unique. Otherwise most perks would seem to be comparable since the CZ57 has a higher base DAM which gives it greater bonuses, while the GL gets Laser Commander, with Camerader-E getting it ahead in damage.
I wonder do Focus Optics get added before the perks, because that would mean that with Focus Optics the GL beats the CZ57 on pure DAM (ammo not included).


I'm pretty sure mods affect the base weapon damage (before perks get added in).
User avatar
Racheal Robertson
 
Posts: 3370
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:03 pm

Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:24 pm

My knowledge has taught me to disregard my firearm and switch to a melee weapon and to my business up close and personal, also I can laugh in my enemies face :)
User avatar
Kayla Bee
 
Posts: 3349
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:34 pm

Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:20 pm

HP. I don't rememver what else, but I can't recall anything else that sets the two apart. As far as laser weapons, other than laser commander, and the unconfimed to work correctly camarader-e (I did not include this. I have heard reports of it not working and haven't had the chance to test it yet), that would be the 3rd perk?

-gunny


Sorry to be so late responding to this. Yeah that would be the third. Actually there's also the challenge perk Set Lasers for Fun, but 4% increase in crit chance probably won't make a big difference to the GL anyway.
User avatar
NeverStopThe
 
Posts: 3405
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:25 pm

Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:23 pm

My character has 8 luck and she still gets a huge amount if crits with her fully modded Laser Pistol.

Personally, I love burning my enemies into ash and the sound of a laser weapon firing.
Also recharging energy cells is much more efficient then reloading shells, using only spent cells and no extra materials.
Only drawback is that you need 25 science for the standard energy cell.
User avatar
Aliish Sheldonn
 
Posts: 3487
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:19 am

Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:37 pm

I just feel guns are better since after a while dead bodies despawn, while ash piles don't. Hate the lag it causes.
User avatar
Ross
 
Posts: 3384
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:22 pm

Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:58 am

I just feel guns are better since after a while dead bodies despawn, while ash piles don't. Hate the lag it causes.

Since playing on a console I too try to avoid leaving ash and goo piles all over the place, but I still love EW. I haven't notice enemies not respawning if disintegrated, just alot more piles start adding up in areas with regular respawns.
User avatar
A Lo RIkIton'ton
 
Posts: 3404
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:22 pm

Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:05 am

Sorry to be so late responding to this. Yeah that would be the third. Actually there's also the challenge perk Set Lasers for Fun, but 4% increase in crit chance probably won't make a big difference to the GL anyway.

I double checked the data, just to make sure I had everthing right for the GL, and AFAICT, everything's correct. If you didn't get a copy of the spreadsheet calculator I use for this stuff, I'd be more than happy to send one to you. PM me if you're interested.

-Gunny
User avatar
Baby K(:
 
Posts: 3395
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:07 pm

Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:11 pm

I double checked the data, just to make sure I had everthing right for the GL, and AFAICT, everything's correct. If you didn't get a copy of the spreadsheet calculator I use for this stuff, I'd be more than happy to send one to you. PM me if you're interested.


Have you thought about putting your spreadsheet on google docs? Google apps are pretty ass in general, but the spreadsheet is sufficient for basic computation, and it would allow for easier sharing/collaboration (and I think it does versioning as well).
User avatar
Emzy Baby!
 
Posts: 3416
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:02 pm

Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:33 am

Have you thought about putting your spreadsheet on google docs? Google apps are pretty ass in general, but the spreadsheet is sufficient for basic computation, and it would allow for easier sharing/collaboration (and I think it does versioning as well).

Havent' really investigated it at all. Frankly it's easier for me to just e-mail people a copy, but I understand there's some folks might not want to advertise their e-mails. If I get a chance, I'll check it out. Is there a max file size you can upload? This things pretty hefty.

Edit: I just took a quick look and it doesn't look like it supports macros.

-Gunny
User avatar
Eileen Collinson
 
Posts: 3208
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:42 am

Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:45 am

As far as the lack of choices for energy weapons, if you are on PC you only need one mod to fix that, Project Nevada. It adds a bunch of energy weapons including the Rail Cannon that uses 12 MF cells per shot but does 400 damage per shot lol. Kind of like a crazy energy rocket launcher. There are a lot of other cool stuff added too. It really makes energy weapons a fair and viable alternative to guns.

Also I find I often have way more EW ammo than I need. I just pick up every Fission Battery I see and never recycle small energy cells. That way I can turn 5 drained cells and 1 battery into 25 SEC. Just cleaning out the repconn rocket facility I amassed 1k+ SECs using this. And with EW it is so easy to switch energy cell types back and forth depending on your needs.

Also I like heavy incinerators for taking out packs of enemies at long range. With the cheap cost of each shot it is easier to home in on a target without breaking the bank like with a grenade machine gun. You just get a rough idea of the range and then walk a line of fire into the enemy and then rain fiery death upon them.
User avatar
Alexander Lee
 
Posts: 3481
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 9:30 pm

Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:20 am


Personally, I love burning my enemies into ash and the sound of a laser weapon firing.



Me too. Ashpiling Jean-Baptiste= instant satisfaction :celebration:
I don't quite get the vs thing. I mean, there are heaps of skill points to allocate. I always max out both skills, in every iteration of Fallout since Part1.
User avatar
Eilidh Brian
 
Posts: 3504
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:45 am

Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:07 am

I just feel guns are better since after a while dead bodies despawn, while ash piles don't. Hate the lag it causes.


I don't know if I am just lucky or what, but I keep hearing this but have never had this problem on the PS3. Don't get me wrong, the game is super buggy, but no more so than any of my guns characters, and my current save file is 7.2 megs large, as I hear that is some kind of threshold.

Not sure what to tell ya...
User avatar
Bigze Stacks
 
Posts: 3309
Joined: Sun May 20, 2007 5:07 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Fallout: New Vegas