Anything that has anything to do with Fable is automatically bad

But I can't mod on the 360. Otherwise I wouldn't bother debating about it if I could just add them later.

I'm glad you acknowledge that we at least on the actual issue, "should Skyrim have guns?" But I think that it's hard to claim that technology levels are the same across the entire continent. Considering that lately we have been restricted to exploring single provinces and only given maybe-truthful in game books to read about the rest of Tamriel.

How hard is it to conceive of combustible substances like gunpowder? I find it hard to dismiss that such a thing exists or is hard to discover. The Chinese discovered black powder for the same reasons TES residents would, alchemy. I find it extremely likely, that there are LOTS of alchemists in Tamriel, all of whom are constantly looking for new ingredients and new combinations of ingredients.

I see this and think, "surely one of these alchemists have blown themselves up at some point?" http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Unmarked_Places#The_First_All_Things_Alchemical EDIT: my bad, could also be the result of a simple fire, we don't know. But my point about accidentally stumbling onto explosive ingredients is VERY likely to happen in my opinion, considering alchemy and its place in TES.

And we know that sturdy metal tubes can be smithed. All else follows (I can't remember where I was going to go next, I lost my train of thought looking for a link to the blown up alchemy shop, lol).

And my opinion on magic not being the end all be all technological surrogate is pretty relevant I guess. But I don't think magic is as pervading as many people claim in the tech vs. magic arguments.

The thing that scares me most about Bethesda including guns is that means they listened to that small amount of their fans that wanted them. They could include a dwemer hand cannon and twist the lore as to why it works, but then the CoD fans that want guns in TES are only sort of happy. When does it end? They'll want another 200 year jump in technology so reloading is faster and they're more accurate, then by TES X, we have a shooter RPG because just as the gun destroyed the medieval era by making armored knights basically useless, it would destroy a lot of key fantasy elements of the TES world if they delved deeper into gun tech.

While I would normally say why I (dis)approve of a given topic but my thoughts regarding this matter can best be summed up by the fellowing video (fellowing the trend).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkmv2eAESfM

Yes it would make sense. There is no way to tell what the advent of magic and gods would do to the progression of a society. Certainly we know that no magic leads to industry, firearms, and technology.

But TES has magic and gods, that makes it a completely different world. Looking at Tamriel anthropologically, I doubt they will ever see the need to leave thier current level of "technology." Even if they did, they run the risk of going the way of the Dwemer.

Guns don't belong in TES, because there creation is illogical. No fighter or rouge is going to invent one, they don't have the know how.

Scholars, wizards, mages have the know how, but why would they make a gun?

Kings, and men of power, have the influence to manage a project to explore the prospects of future weapons, but why would they spend the resources looking for such innovations when they can hire, or train, mages/Battlemages/etc.

This.

One doesn't "compromise" with an unacceptable request. There is neither need nor desire to meet the request at all, so there's certainly no need to "compromise" on it.

Your "compromise" is oddly similar to the US government's "compromise" of banning only some guns instead of all of them. The presumably unintentional irony therein amuses me.


It's not so much a matter of "gun gameplay mechanics" at all. It's a matter of the rank creepiness of gun nuts and the desire amongst TES fans to keep their hands as far away from these games as possible. The Klebolds and Harrises of the world have plenty of games already in which to indulge their mastvrbatory fascination with guns, and they're simply not wanted in this community. They really need to just get over that. It hasn't changed in all the years that the gun freaks have relentlessly hectored the community and it's not going to change.



And this neatly illustrates the point I made earlier on this thread about the creepiness of gun nuts. When the existing ranged weapons aren't sufficient to satisfy you and you're willing to go to such lengths to have a weapon that will be deliberately gimped in such a way that it won't unbalance the game world - even in such a way that it will be inferior to those existing ranged weapons - it's obvious that this isn't even a request made based on any sort of strategic consideration, but simply a slavering desire for GUNS :drool:

Makes me want to go take a shower to wash the creepy off.

I see what you mean. I never played the 2nd or 3rd Fable games because they are basically reskinned Call of Duty clones. And any fourth game in the series will end up being a Halo clone, so I never went past Fable 1.

Heck no it doesn't fit Lore Wise and the material to use them isn't in the Elder Scrolls World. Archery is the closest thing you'll get to guns.

I'm not a CoD fan. Guns does not equal CoD. CoD is not the first game to make use of them, and they will not be the last.

I highly doubt a bullet could puncture daedric armor. Glass armor seems pretty tough as well, and I bet its bullet proof in some regards. Guns wouldn't become the end all weapon. Magic exists, magic would curve the growth of weaponry. While I think holding a staff at eye level to make sure you hit long range targets is a pretty simple consept, its revolutionary for the inhabitance of Tamriel. It would require no technological advancement of any kind, but it would not only be a gun that fits with the lore, but it would actually be more effective than our modern guns along with ammo being universal.

The world of TES is a strange, but very large one. Not one thing could ever be the end all weapon. Bows for example could never be dwarfed by a gun, because bows are silent. And with magic, bows are easily stronger than any gun could ever hope to be. Crossbows would advance to be able to reload faster and hold more ammo. Guns would have to choose, to either be more powerful or hold more ammo. With the way TES looks, they would probably go for one powerful shot and improve reloading speeds.

Slippery slope fallacy. Just adding a magic gun that is reminicint of the flintlock doesn't mean we'll end up with AK47's in the next game.


Its almost like you're trying to be funny. Strange.

At any rate, sorry for having an opinion that isn't yours. I'd rather have more varients with ranged weapons rather than just a bow and possibly a crossbow. Why have different kinds of swords when one kind will get the job done? Sorry for not being a sword nut? I'd like to see katana's, claymores, longsword, shortswords, all that jazz too. Why have short swords when there are longsword?

I've all ready stated many times the strategic advantage guns could have. Bows are long range silent snipers. Guns are power house close range killers. Crossbows would be rapid fire short range killers.

Ya don't need to act smart when someone disagree's with you and wants something in the game. But go take a shower to cool your head off. Come back when you thought of a different way to insult me. I know you're creative enought to think of something else with time. But here's here hoping instead you think of something that critizises my view and gives a legitimate reason as to why guns shouldn't be added.

I disagree, respectfully. There's no saying that adding guns won't start a snowball effect. Fans want guns, let's say they include them. Then fans use it, realize how choppy it is, and want more effective guns. Next TES comes out, guns are slightly more effective, but these same fans clamoring for a gun start begging for a technological advanced gun. When does that end? It's so much more simple to be happy with what we have.

Hell, I'd much rather have a lore-fitting spear back than adding a rifle.

No.

My 'compromise' being the inclusion of X-bows and the exclusion of firearms? Are you saying that's similar to banning some guns and not others? Are you saying a x-bow is a kind of gun? Should we ban x-bows because it is ironic to ban guns and not x-bows? I don't see how it resembles the US goverment banning military grade assault rifles and not a pump action 12 gauge... You lost me.

Oh, and you're Columbine references remind me that we should also not allow beast races to mate with men or elves, because of the sick perversion that is bestiality. As well as the various daedra cults that resemble the KoolAid drinking Charles Manson's out there.

Let's leave real world politics out of it, shall we?





This.

:shrug: If the gameplay is choppy ya I'd want that fixed. But if the gun works fine then I dont see why people would want more effective guns. That hasn't happend with magic, or bows, or swords yet, so I don't think they'd have to increase the gun's effectivness.

If guns hold an advantage that it holds all to itself, I think that would be enough to keep guns where they stand. Deals higher damage, but only can be used in close range combat. Crossbow would be for rappid fire, close to mid range combat. And the bow would be slow, but faster than the gun, and be for silent long range combat. I think that would work nicely. There'd be some variation to range combat, instead of there being just bows, and you could choose which ever you liked best.

Besides, TES evolves at a snales pace. People would understand if guns wouldn't improve after being added. Especially if the ingame time between events is short like it was for the transfer from Morrowind to Oblivion.

PS: Thanks about being respectible about it though. You're much better than the person trying to insinuate I have a fetish for guns. :facepalm: I can respect you for that.

Technological levels most definitely diverge across all of Tamriel, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they lead to blackpowder research....

I always just assumed that place was burned down because the lady who runs it is a necrophiliac, and most likely a dabbler in necromancy (she practically tells you). Somebody probably burned her house down 'cause she made zombies or something. Or she had some zombies turn on her, and she started the fire. :shrug:
Never thought it was 'cause of alchemy....

Meh. Yeah, but TES alchemy and our world's alchemy are totally different. Namely the whole 'magic actually exists' thing...not just chemical reactions... :whistling:

Bah. Who knows. The developers will do whatever they want anyway, in most cases. And I'm pretty sure they don't like guns either. :ahhh:

No. Look what happened to Fable.

Haha. Epic.

That's not a problem at all though. Whether they are chemical reactions or not, in TES the ingredients combine to create new substances with certain "magical" effects. I'm just postulating that there are a few ingredients out there in Tamriel (or Oblivion) that when combined create an expanding fiery effect that we would describe as an "explosion." This explosion effect would of course be based on the magical properties found within the ingredients, making it a product of magic and not chemistry. But once this exploding recipe is discovered, non-magical persons can utilize the effect to do lots of things. Think of how much easier (and dangerous I guess lol) mining would be?

People can take advantage of POWERFUL potions and poisons that mimic magical effects that mages need years to produce on their own. This is why fighters, non magical professions, carry around potions of Healing. Why don't you think fighters say, "bah, who needs potions of healing when I can cast Cure Minor Wounds? Or if I study hard enough, I can cast Cure Moderate Wounds?"

So why would a substance mimicking a fireball not be used in a similar manner by those not wishing to devote huge amounts of time to learning the spell themselves?

Of course this all hinges on the idea that there are ingredients that actually produce an exploding effect. There are gases found in mines that explode, as I recall an in-game note describing this.

But going from exploding substance to firearms is a huge leap, I will not deny this. But if it is not possible because of magical alternatives mitigating the need to innovate, why practice alchemy at all? Or rather, has alchemy and its knowledge reached the maximum, are there no new alchemical discoveries to be made?

Yep. I stopped playing after the first one (which I thought was rather good, actually).
I hate guns in fantasy. Now, if Fable called itself steampunk, that'd be different. Even though I don't like steampunk, I just think things should have appropriate descriptions.
Guns + Fantasy = Steampunk

Sure, it's a subgenre, but still. It has a name for a reason, right?

Bleh. I dunno.

For all that trouble, even the most humble Nord who has ever been left naked and paralyzed in the wild could go to town, buy a staff, and shoot fireballs as well as a wizard, y'know? Guns are so complex, magical staves are so simple. :teehee:

But, I get your point.

That's actually what one of my firsts posts in this thread was about. Hold a stave a different way and you get a gun. A gun that is ungodly epic, with its universal ammo and crazy effects. If I was that nord, trying to hit that dear that's a good 50 yards away with my magical staff, I'd hold it at eye level and look down the barrel to make sure I'd hit it instead of just firing from the hip.

Not all technological advances have to be revolutionary. A two handed staff which one could look down the barrel of instead of always firing hap-hazzardly from the hip would be a welcome advancement in my book, and it would be a gun in my book too. Though, I pretty much all ready consider staves in TES just magical guns. All they lack is a trigger and a propper way to aim at something far away, but they make up for it with the ammo and fire power.

Unless I'm missing your point, I suppose a stalf's effectiveness should be based on a player's skill.

I want guns in Skyrim. This is what TES is really missing.

Flintlock guns, machine guns, hand grenades, laser blasters, light sabers and nuclear devices to name the least.

Which means we should have appropriate skillset for these - well, light sabers could stay in ongsword skills i guess... Obviosuly, hand grenades should have a skill on their own, unless throwing knives skills is in.

This also means Armour sets should have an additional resistance possibility to the 'elements' laser and nuclear stuff.

............NO!!!!!!!!!!!!! if they took crossbows out, what makes you think that they'll put guns in? It has been said many times, so do not get mad when I reiterate "This is not Fable"