Guns in TES 5?

Post » Thu May 26, 2011 8:35 pm

Fable made it work by removing many things that would consider to be an Aspect of Sword and Magic RPG. I do not want to see it go down that road, just to add guns. WoW did it because Warcraft was a RTS and have game units that have Dwarves with musket to even out the range unit in the Human side. Its defiently not RPG to begin with.


All RPGs are different. And I'm not saying they have to remove weapons. I'm just saying it's been done, and there's no reason to think that gamesas can't make it work. RTS should have nothing to do with why there are guns. Age of Wonder didn't have guns. Age of Empires I and II didn't have guns. Age of Mythology didn't have guns. And it doesn't matter why the game even had guns in the first place: guns are in World of Warcraft and it works, so your point is moot.

Because as simple as the answer is it is a gimmick, just to add to attract other players. And adding gun would hurt the atmosphere that we called TES. Its not valuable addition. Its just changing the franchise to something that it is not.


Okay, then repeat after me, "I do not think guns would be a good idea because they would detract from gameplay".

Oblivion was not really a good representation of magic or melee at that point.


Uh, yeah. That's what I said.

And teleporation is just a way anyone is not prepare for battle. If mage even know where to teleport or knows the spell or even have mana enough for it and teleport away, he lost.


I can't even tell if you're talking in past or present. There has been no combat teleportation manuevring in TES games yet, but there's no reason to believe a mage couldn't whisk himself several feet away in combat.

What? Because they lose Mana points? Please. Ya have to stop assuming all mages are that of PC league. They are not that powerful or numerous to be a threat to even it out with "Guns".


What? You're the one that said some mages can just cast Flare and run out of MP. I'm saying that should only give more reason for firepower alternatives that don't require self-limiting sources.

No, the handling of the Empire with Picard dead will surely destroy itself with rebellion and warring states.


Picard? Anyway, why does the emperor need to be a Septim for the Empire to do well?
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ILy- Forver
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 6:15 am

TES=no guns

TES=pure RPG for an RPG audience only, that way us RPG players don't have to hear:

"Dude, I shot that zombie's head off so hard, and it exploded. Sweet."

for an Elder Scrolls Game topic.
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James Potter
 
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Post » Thu May 26, 2011 10:15 pm

why do you want guns? its like ok, beat oblivion, year later bam thousands of guns. the elder scrolls needs to remain the ELDER scrolls. whats the point of skipping a good 100 years, in which there is lots of fantasy, excitement, sorrow, adventure, m'aiq, and other stuff that is way cooler than a musty old blunderbuss... not so much fantasy with guns and shooting and world war I and II

EDIT: and anyone that wants a gun click on the fishy stick link in my sig :hehe:
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mollypop
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 2:27 am

TES=no guns

TES=pure RPG for an RPG audience only, that way us RPG players don't have to hear:

"Dude, I shot that zombie's head off so hard, and it exploded. Sweet."

for an Elder Scrolls Game topic.


I'm not suggesting exploding body parts, in fact, in the Gore topic, I say it and dismemberment wouldn't belong.
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Joie Perez
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 1:11 am

"Dude, I shot that zombie's head off so hard, and it exploded. Sweet."

That would actually be kinda cool. But I get what you're saying.

As for guns in TES, the naysayers seem to think that said guns would be ak-47s, where the yaysayers say slow-loading powder weapons. I disagree with both. Why? Because Nirn has magick. Think outside the box and create frikin gun that is literally powered on magick!

However, I don't want guns in TES 5: Skyrim, TES 6: Summerset, TES 7: Escape from Ninja Mountain, or TES 8: Treause of the Pirate King. OR TESA: Sload Danceoff.
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Tanya Parra
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 1:58 am

All RPGs are different. And I'm not saying they have to remove weapons. I'm just saying it's been done, and there's no reason to think that gamesas can't make it work. RTS should have nothing to do with why there are guns. Age of Wonder didn't have guns. Age of Empires I and II didn't have guns. Age of Mythology didn't have guns. And it doesn't matter why the game even had guns in the first place: guns are in World of Warcraft and it works, so your point is moot.

Its how Warcraft was like. They add in Dwarves with musket for the Human side. Of course, Warcraft is not like any other RTS. What I am saying ya baseing it on lore on RPG, but Warcraft is that of RTS origin.

Okay, then repeat after me, "I do not think guns would be a good idea because they would detract from gameplay".

Like I would repeat that. Crossbows and Staff suffice enough. Anyways, its just more its not within the atmosphere of the series and the genre itself, more on that it more of screwing the lore, in more ways then one. Gun does not fit into the franchise without destroy its own lore.

Uh, yeah. That's what I said.

I know, but I added the melee part as well.

I can't even tell if you're talking in past or present. There has been no combat teleportation manuevring in TES games yet, but there's no reason to believe a mage couldn't whisk himself several feet away in combat.

As in teleporting to a ledge or a pillar? That would be a good addition of magic on it self.

What? You're the one that said some mages can just cast Flare and run out of MP. I'm saying that should only give more reason for firepower alternatives that don't require self-limiting sources.

They can cast anything they want within their knowledge, flare just a small example. As for alternate, There already one. The whole collection of swords and what not, as throwable items as well as to teh crossbow. If they want to balance thing by adding thing ingame, start with items that were remove from Oblivion.

Picard? Anyway, why does the emperor need to be a Septim for the Empire to do well?
He did not sweat talk ya in teh intro of Oblivion? Anyways, it more that the whole place been under the Empire rule. The Empire ruling the place for a long time. I would say that the King is dead, other , smaller kings would want to be title Emperor or try to be independent from the Empire.
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jasminε
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 11:56 am

There are a plethora of games that have fantastic gun mechanics, and almost none that do sword play, and melee weapons well.

I would for once like a game where I'm not zipping side to side shooting my sub automatic at other weaving enemies.

I prefer that fantastic feel of testing your opponent, almost like deadly dance, graceful and entertaining in so many ways.

That's what I want TES to be like, not fast gunplay.
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Hannah Barnard
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 11:38 am

I'm not suggesting exploding body parts, in fact, in the Gore topic, I say it and dismemberment wouldn't belong.


I'm not even talking about dismemberment. I'm just giving my thoughts on it. I'm know you don't want gore or anything like an ak-47, but even the simplest of muskets or flint-lock pistols just don't fit. Some people would still like the guns to shoot people as if they were modern guns. Guns just don't make any sense in TES lore or technology. Bows work just as well while fitting within the realms of logic. Guns being introduced out of nowhere in the fifth installment of the game won't work.
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Danial Zachery
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 1:11 am

Its how Warcraft was like. They add in Dwarves with musket for the Human side. Of course, Warcraft is not like any other RTS. What I am saying ya baseing it on lore on RPG, but Warcraft is that of RTS origin.


Why should it matter that Warcraft is RTS in origin, or why it originally had guns? World of Warcraft is an RPG. World of Warcraft has guns. The guns make sense in World of Warcraft (the RPG).

Like I would repeat that. Crossbows and Staff suffice enough.


Why wouldn't you repeat that?!?! That's what you've been trying to tell me but haven't been able to put it in a good way.

Anyways, its just more its not within the atmosphere of the series and the genre itself, more on that it more of screwing the lore, in more ways then one. Gun does not fit into the franchise without destroy its own lore.


But you've still failed to explain why it wouldn't fill in the atmosphere. And I don't see how it would "destroy its own lore".

As in teleporting to a ledge or a pillar? That would be a good addition of magic on it self.


Then you agree that a mage in a realistic context would generally be superior to the warrior.

They can cast anything they want within their knowledge, flare just a small example.


But what you were saying is that not all mages are as good as the CoC. So wouldn't that warrant the need for more advanced combat methods to develop?

As for alternate, There already one. The whole collection of swords and what not, as throwable items as well as to teh crossbow. If they want to balance thing by adding thing ingame, start with items that were remove from Oblivion.


But if Flare doesn't work, or an arrow doesn't work, why should a throwing star, or a bolt?

Anyways, it more that the whole place been under the Empire rule. The Empire ruling the place for a long time. I would say that the King is dead, other , smaller kings would want to be title Emperor or try to be independent from the Empire.


The bottom line is that the Elder Council would appoint the Emperor.
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kiss my weasel
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 12:15 am

Why should it matter that Warcraft is RTS in origin, or why it originally had guns? World of Warcraft is an RPG. World of Warcraft has guns. The guns make sense in World of Warcraft (the RPG).

And WoW is its own universe and lore. Not to mention a different branch of RPG.

Why wouldn't you repeat that?!?! That's what you've been trying to tell me but haven't been able to put it in a good way.

Because adding guns is also redundant, not to mention those thing already function like a gun, with the crossbow not existing, I rather crossbow goes back ingame.

But you've still failed to explain why it wouldn't fill in the atmosphere. And I don't see how it would "destroy its own lore".

Its just not the feeling of it; its not Elderscroll like anymore. One who play Elderscroll should know this by know. "Destroy its own lore" goes from ignoring everything the lore build up and add random stuff to it without explanation.

Then you agree that a mage in a realistic context would generally be superior to the warrior.

Might be good, might not. The Mage might ran out of mana, or shoot by arrow, or even kill before that happens, or even teh foe have a teleporting spell of his own. Ya looking at this as a mage vs warrior. I see its as mage vs anything, not just sticking with just swords. It might keep the mage alive fore a while, but he cannot be there forever if his Mana is lacking.

But what you were saying is that not all mages are as good as the CoC. So wouldn't that warrant the need for more advanced combat methods to develop?

No, ya keep saying that in a stand point, a random mage is epic. He is not.

But if Flare doesn't work, or an arrow doesn't work, why should a throwing star, or a bolt?

And what if it does work or what not? It might not work as the mage might have cast shield or spell reflect.

The bottom line is that the Elder Council would appoint the Emperor.

I doubt everyone give a dam about the Elder Council. Hell, I would bet they would fight each other for power. The Emperor is symbol of power of the Empire. Kill him and one would know the Empire is weaken.
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Monika Krzyzak
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 7:46 am

Qawsed, what's your avatar from?
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JESSE
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 2:48 am

A character from a comic based on a game.
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Adam Kriner
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 9:37 am

:brokencomputer: :brokencomputer: :brokencomputer: :brokencomputer: :brokencomputer: :brokencomputer: :brokencomputer: :brokencomputer:

And WoW is its own universe and lore. Not to mention a different branch of RPG.


And you're STILL missing the point. It shouldn't have to do with the genre, it should have to do with the context.

Because adding guns is also redundant, not to mention those thing already function like a gun, with the crossbow not existing, I rather crossbow goes back ingame.


A crossbow is not like a gun. In fact a crossbow realistically should be worse than a bow, with current game mechanics.

Its just not the feeling of it; its not Elderscroll like anymore. One who play Elderscroll should know this by know. "Destroy its own lore" goes from ignoring everything the lore build up and add random stuff to it without explanation.


The feeling defined by whom? You seem to have this idea that if guns were implemented, everyone would be running around with RPKs, AK-47s, G36Cs, Skorpions, what have you. I, for one, could easily imagine an Imperial Guard brandishing a musket or an arquebus.

Might be good, might not. The Mage might ran out of mana, or shoot by arrow, or even kill before that happens, or even teh foe have a teleporting spell of his own. Ya looking at this as a mage vs warrior. I see its as mage vs anything, not just sticking with just swords. It might keep the mage alive fore a while, but he cannot be there forever if his Mana is lacking.


Right, because warriors have infinite health.

No, ya keep saying that in a stand point, a random mage is epic. He is not.


No. No. And again, no. What I did was propose an example of why better technology might be needed, which was that perhaps the common person, or maybe the warrior, needed some kind of edge over the versatility of magic that exists on Nirn. You took this completely out of proportion and said that not all mages are epic. That's not what I was proposing. But if a mage had a spell that could make them levitate, or to transport a short distance away, what is a warrior going to do? If there is already some distance between the two, what's going to keep the mage from using whatever magic available to kill the warrior (in a prompted combat setting of course)? Stop twisting my words.

It might not work as the mage might have cast shield or spell reflect.


Duh?

I doubt everyone give a dam about the Elder Council. Hell, I would bet they would fight each other for power. The Emperor is symbol of power of the Empire. Kill him and one would know the Empire is weaken.


You doubt? Emperors have been killed before, and the Empire is still going strong. Just because the latest emperor is dead doesn't mean they are going to be developmentally thrust backwards. Anyway, how do any of the events in TESIV lead you to have a good understanding of the Elder Council, its public relationship, and its interpersonal relationship? If anything, the Oblivion Crisis will lead the people to trust them even more.
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Kayla Oatney
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 7:53 am

And you're STILL missing the point. It shouldn't have to do with the genre, it should have to do with the context.

Except the context fit to whatever the context was in the first place. WoW context is WoW and TES context is TES.

A crossbow is not like a gun. In fact a crossbow realistically should be worse than a bow, with current game mechanics.

To an experience user, it might not be worth using a crossbow. To a newb, its decent enough to use. Also, more on the roleplay points as well. And reality does not mix well with fantasy.

The feeling defined by whom? You seem to have this idea that if guns were implemented, everyone would be running around with RPKs, AK-47s, G36Cs, Skorpions, what have you. I, for one, could easily imagine an Imperial Guard brandishing a musket or an arquebus.

One self. To me, It will feel that the TES will not be TES if they would add guns to the game. Its just contradict with its own game/lore/genre. Its a feeling.

Right, because warriors have infinite health.

No, but he could be an assassin (kill with unnoticed), archer (range and poison), warrior (kill mage in battle), or a mix of all above.

No. No. And again, no. What I did was propose an example of why better technology might be needed, which was that perhaps the common person, or maybe the warrior, needed some kind of edge over the versatility of magic that exists on Nirn. You took this completely out of proportion and said that not all mages are epic. That's not what I was proposing. But if a mage had a spell that could make them levitate, or to transport a short distance away, what is a warrior going to do? If there is already some distance between the two, what's going to keep the mage from using whatever magic available to kill the warrior (in a prompted combat setting of course)? Stop twisting my words.

So pretty much, they have magic, why not just add guns to even it out? That a crappy reason to add guns. As I said before and before, there are way to kill something that ya cannot touch. Magic bite Magic for one thing. Archery is another. Pew Pew with the crossbow helps. Throwing thing can suffice. Long range weapon aka spear can poke them, enchantment armor for protection. Poison can be taken into consideration. Beside, I doubt that it would goes as far to adding gun just for this.

Duh?

Duh.

You doubt? Emperors have been killed before, and the Empire is still going strong. Just because the latest emperor is dead doesn't mean they are going to be developmentally thrust backwards. Anyway, how do any of the events in TESIV lead you to have a good understanding of the Elder Council, its public relationship, and its interpersonal relationship? If anything, the Oblivion Crisis will lead the people to trust them even more.
This time, there is no heir, unless Picard did made more babies that we did not know. And base from the rumors flying around, the nature of the people in other provinces, and pretty much other human nature, I would expect a chance for rebellion here.
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Claudz
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 11:14 am




... Really? Again? Really? <_< Just when it was getting refreshing to not have to deal with the topic...
First off, the context-sensitive arguments don't matter in the slightest because guns and all they bring to the table simply do not fit the style of game that TES presents. http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=970208 http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=971986 http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1028741&hl=Guns http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1027239&hl=Guns http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1018376 http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1021081&hl=Guns

As for the context-sensitive arguments... I guess I'll just post what I always end up posting in these gun threads.
ON DWEMER AND “TECHNOLOGY:”
Assuming that the focus of the Dwemer was technology is incorrect. The Dwemer did not create or utilize technology for the sake of technology; nor were their goals technological. Their culmination of goals (specifically, the goals of Kagrenac) were to return to the first brush, to undo their lower subgradient state as compared to the et’ada. Their means to this goal was the creation of the Brass God. As such, their goal and their means to it were rooted in myth, magic, and metaphysics, not technology.

This also applies to the physical things we see within their ruins in Vvardenfell (and presumably Hammerfell). This mythically rooted concept can be reinforced by the idea of the Dwemer Animunculi. Their operation “combines two incompatible principles, thus denying both.” The core of the animunculi, then, relies on a metaphysical advancement, not a technological advancement. There are also reports that Vvardenfell animunculi deactivate when getting too far from the shores, indicating a possible link with the Heart of Lorkhan, which further implies their true nature deals with the magical, mythical, and metaphysical, not the technological. Any role technology would have played was the immaterial wrapping over the true nature, i.e. the magical, mythical, and metaphysical.

This disinterest in actually focusing on technology in and of itself can be seen in their implementation of weapons. This is a race that has the ability to divide by zero; it is conceivable that they had the ability to create some form of explosives-driven firearms. But they kept it simple, developing only what was necessary for defense; swords, axes, hammers, crossbows, and ballistae. If technological advancement was truly their focus, were something other than a basic means to and end that could be discarded if needed, why did they not spend more time developing deadlier, less-common weapons? One answer is, how does a gun or firearm hold up to mythically creating a new god? Which is a more worthy pursuit: going after a slight advantage with technology, or becoming level with the et’ada via the birth of a new deity with magic, myth, and metaphysics? If firearms were a plausible route of development that the Dwemer considered worth their time, why are there no such firearms in the Resdayn ruins residing in the Dwemer homeland?

Since the Dwemer focus and interest resides with the magical, mythical, and metaphysical, we can assume that most serious research journals will involve such things in detail, and they are far less likely to cover such menial things like physical technology, which is considered the crude, simplistic tool to the grand art. Examples: Divine Metaphysics and The Egg of Time deal with grandiose mythical concepts, not menial technological concepts.

ON TAMRIEL AND FIREARMS DEVELOPMENT:
We can likely agree that if any race possessed the ability to develop firearms, it would be the Dwemer. Since the discovery Hanging Gardens made Dwemer able to be roughly translated, it’s arguable that the language barrier is not a large issue. But how many Dwemer books or notes are there to study? The unearthing of Bamz-Amschend in Almalexia also unearthed a plethora of books, but not even Hanging Gardens could help with these. Each one is preempted with: “This book appears to be written in an unknown Dwemer language.” So all we really have are Divine Metaphysics and the Egg of Time (which are metaphysical and mythical treatises, not technological treatises). The only people who seem to be able to decipher these (even with the ability to read them) are Baladas Demnevani and Yagrum Bagarn, and their mental faculties and direct experience (respectively) cannot be compared to the average or even greatly-above-average citizen of Tamriel. The player only received a minimal “explanation-lite” to deliver to Trebonius, and who’s to say what Trebonius in all his idiocy did with such a report? Because of this knowledge-filtering, the odds of anyone actually understanding Dwemer methods well enough to recreate them are insanely close to zero.

Furthermore, we developed guns in the real world over a long-term realization that sharpened projectiles launched at significant speeds held advantage over face-to-face combat. But TES is a world founded in magic from its conception, from the time of Anu and Padhome and the IS-IS NOT. All that guns represent to us in the real world are met and overmatched by magic that has been there since the very beginning. A bow or a crossbow is a relatively simple nonmagical alternative, as opposed to magic which requires some skill to use. However, the idea of firearms coming up are slim to none; society and culture for the entire history of Nirn have known about, and broadened their understanding of, magic. Magic IS their concept of firearms. If someone wanted more firepower than what his bow could provide, he would know or be told via common sense and deeply-rooted-from-the-birth-of-the-world tradition and culture that he would need to join the Mages Guild. Or go attempt to get in with the Psijics on Arateum.

ON REAL-LIFE CHEMISTRY AND PHYSICS COMPARED TO TES:
Chemistry is not Alchemy. Chemistry is utilizing the natural properties of substances and rearranging said natural properties to form a new substance that still relies on the natural properties of its former components. Alchemy is harvesting supernatural and magical properties from natural properties to form a new substance that manifests supernatural properties and is separate from and not dependant upon the natural properties of its former components.

On the surface, it appears that real-world physics and TES physics are similar; at least, Nirn, the Deadlands, and the Shivering Isles aka Madhouse seem to adhere to real-world concepts of physics. However, there are stark holes in this idea that physics are the same or are even basically similar:
  • This is a world where the night sky is nothing more than a great illusion that mortal minds automatically create to account for the impossible sight of the sixteen equally infinite planes of the Daedra intermeshing with one another and the void.
  • This is a world where stars are not giant balls of helium gas; stars are literally the tears in the fabric of Oblivion caused by the et’ada who fled before Lorkhan tricked/convinced the Aedra to create the mortal world.
  • This is a world where you have documented cases of people traversing through the void and the different realms of Oblivion, which should be physically impossible, due to the fact that each realm (and likely the void itself) is infinite. How does one physically travel from one infinity to another?
  • This is a world whose entire universe is not a physical structure at all but a metaphysical structure aka the Wheel.
  • This is a world where Gods (!) can physically manifest themselves in the world, and they are by definition both the materialized aspect in Nirn and the infinite plane(t) in the void at the same time.

Can you imagine grafting technology (even basic technology) such as guns on a world such as this?

ON THE OUT-OF-GAME ARGUMENT:
Either way, it all comes back to this simple out-of-game-context statement:

Guns do not match the basic premises of The Elder Scrolls.

It doesn't matter if firearms were highly plausible within the context of in-game arguments. TES is a sword-and-magic high-fantasy RPG. That is its genre; that is what people expect and want out of TES titles. Adding firearms to the world changes that genre and clashes with those basic premises, even if they are significantly watered down and balanced. The past two polls, which I linked in my past post, show how the Forum community feels about guns.
They promptly fall under the category of "Do Not Want."

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u gone see
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 11:54 am




... Really? Again? Really? <_< Just when it was getting refreshing to not have to deal with the topic...
First off, the context-sensitive arguments don't matter in the slightest because guns and all they bring to the table simply do not fit the style of game that TES presents. http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=970208 http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=971986 http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1028741&hl=Guns http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1027239&hl=Guns http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1018376 http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1021081&hl=Guns

As for the context-sensitive arguments... I guess I'll just post what I always end up posting in these gun threads.


:clap: Your post sums it up and proves the assertion of guns do not fit, which is my thesis.
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Matthew Warren
 
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Post » Thu May 26, 2011 9:50 pm

I always considered the staves in TES to be it's version of guns.

Obviously, the only similarity is that they both send projectiles towards the enemy, and even then, staves use elemental projectiles, like fireballs, while guns use bullets.

But if you really want guns in TES, just close your eyes while using a staff and pretend you're just firing a gun.

But I understand that most people don't want guns in TES because it just doesn't fit in with the setting, and I somewhat agree. But there is machinery in the games, or at least in Oblivion. The machine used by the Blackwood Company to extract that drug from a tree, for example. So technically, a gun in TES wouldn't be all that out of place.

But still, I prefer no guns. If I want to play with guns, I'll play just about every game I own. If I want to play with magic, I'll play a TES game.

Though I wouldn't be entirely opposed to a very primitive gun, so primitive it's unusable. Perhaps a gun that over-encumbers even the highest level character, and you have to use several feather spells to use it. And it takes 20 seconds of loud, strange noises coming from the gun powering up before shooting a small bullet that only does 1 dmg. That would be a nice easter egg.
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Queen Bitch
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 6:37 am

ThatOneGuy, out of curiosity, where did you quote that from?
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Robert
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 6:12 am

I think there should be guns in TES V, but only if they are squirt guns (water guns).

Oh, the fun!
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Averielle Garcia
 
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Post » Thu May 26, 2011 11:53 pm

:clap: Your post sums it up and proves the assertion of guns do not fit, which is my thesis.

Except for the holes in his logic, I guess it does prove guns do not fit.

The post focused mainly on the Dwemer, who are not essential to the invention of guns. Any culture in TES is capable of creating a gun. The machinery around the Hist in Blackwood Company proves technological advances without Dwemer are possible.

The idea that culture is focused on magic as powerful projectiles is true, but any group with no access to teachings or pools of magicka may try to develop something that simulates it, and this is where the gun comes in.

Alchemy in the real world led to important discoveries, and eventually led to chemistry. By saying the two cannot be compared is ridiculous. If an alchemist found a new combination of ingredients that could ignite with explosive results, he would want to use it and sell it. Something this novel, could bring a nice price. As it spreads across Tamriel, people will be experimenting with it and a primitive gun may be invented.

(If memory serves, and it may not, I recall hearing about a cannon in TES, in which case there would have to be some sort of black powder or other means to use it, and it also means the idea of a firearm is floating around in TES.)
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Nicole Kraus
 
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Post » Thu May 26, 2011 7:31 pm

I don't think guns fit TES ... but I could see discovering an antique Dwemeri shooting device. The problem is, to be usable, it would need animations, etc.--and if they were going to add a weapon I'd prefer spears to a gun.
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Lovingly
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 3:15 am

Well, in response to his post, he says that if anyone were to have a gun, it would be the Dwemer. But then he says that the Dwemer are not technologically driven. If it didn't server them any purpose, they aren't going to have developed a gun. A gun that might be implemented would be relatively simple in construction anyway. In fact, for once, Qawsed is right; the trigger mechanism would be similar to that of a crossbow. The only real difference is that would have a matchlock.
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kitten maciver
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 1:32 am

Wow, this is amazing... i left a couple of hours ago and somehow this topic has gained 4 pages...wow :mellow:

Now i just finished reading all that :read: , the little battle between aphotic and qawsed, the occasional 'nooooooo' and thatoneguy's masterful display of pwning (good job :goodjob: ). Here is what i think.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! :thumbsdown:

Just kidding this will be a meaningful post ^_^


*All rise for the almighty judge 'K' and his final verdict*

Looking at both sides of the argument i will attempt to anolyse both sides of the argument from a non-biased point of view (yeah right :rolleyes: ). The main representative of the proposition for the introduction of TES, Aphotic, describes guns as balancing out gameplay and would make sense since the citizens of Tamriel would require a form of defense to match the power and range of the mages. This point has been classed invalid, the problem with this point is that it attempts to merge both gameplay and logic/lore. The point means to show how mages were portrayed in TES IV as too weak, the mage, lore and logic wise, should be more powerful than this showing more power and the ability to terrorize towns in a mere group of three, however many of the other points that the proposition has posted seem to give the idea that guns would be more of a gameplay advancement rather than a lore advancement, this is the main cause of the point's invalidity, you cannot use lore as an excuse to further gameplay, if we did however validate this point then there are several points which have been masterfully and numerously displayed, disproving any hope for this point, one of the main points is the point that, whether or not the game actually does represent them incorrectly, this is still just the opinion of the proposition, another person could just as easily say that mages were too powerful in TES IV, there is no factual evidence to indeed prove that mages are the 'uber' class of TES. Secondly if we were to take a gameplay point of view which does match a logic/lore point of view it would be this, balance. In almost all RPG's there has been some form of balance to keep all classes in check, just like rock paper scissors, rock breaks scissors, scissors cuts paper, paper covers rock. Mages are indeed known to be very powerful with their magical skills, however they are also known to have lower staminas than most classes and most definitely are slower than most classes, this is because they time and effort they put into furthering their intellingence, willpower etc. keeps them from excelling at these other stats, thus giving them weaknesses, rangers can defeat mages, why? Because rangers have speed, they have agility, they can evade attacks by mages, it is true that arrows are not as powerful as a gun (if we look at it from a strength point of view) however a gun would potentially ruin that class balance, with the introduction of the gun rangers would have literally become mages without magic, one uses ammo, when uses charge, one fires slow reloading shots, one fires medium reloading shots.
Then we have the atmosphere issue, this is perhaps the heart of most rebuttals by the opposition, it cannot be denied by the proposition that the introduction of guns would most certainly change the atmosphere of the game, where at one time you would be firing spells and evading swords swings, you would then be firing shots then reloading your ammo belt behind a rock, some might say 'so what?' Lets look at why from a player's perspective, when a player plays TES they expect a certain feel to what they are going to see and do, they expect a fantasy game, much like D&D, similar to world of warcraft and all those others, but at the same time unique in it's own personal traits. These cannot be fully explained as doing so would require a complete anolysis of every element in the game, however all of you know what i am talking about, the TES feel, the feeling you are drawn into when you start the game, when you insert the disc, when you play in the world, you know what i am talking about, because of this you cannot deny that that feel would most definitely change, i cannot tell you whether this change would be for better or for worse as i cannot represent the opinion of every single individual that has played TES, however, you know what that feel is, you know whether you would like the change or not, you know what would happen if that change happened.

*Court will now go into recess, in the time from now until the next hearing all are free to argue and add to the points discussed now*

I'll stop for now, i'll come back later to continue the anolysis of all the points, in that time feel free to do whatever you like, oh and good job to both aphotic and qawsed for a stimulating argument :tops:



PS

Aphotic, if the only difference would be the triggering mechanism what's the point of adding guns and not just bringing back crossbows?
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Ray
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 2:41 am

(If memory serves, and it may not, I recall hearing about a cannon in TES, in which case there would have to be some sort of black powder or other means to use it, and it also means the idea of a firearm is floating around in TES.)

The walls of Sentinel used to (or still has) quite a few cannons, ready to repel invaders. But that doesn't neccasarily mean they're powder cannons.
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Angela Woods
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 7:22 am

ThatOneGuy, out of curiosity, where did you quote that from?

From me. I wrote that up a long time ago, and the original topic from whence it came is so deeply buried I couldn't find it. It gets reposted in every gun thread.

The post focused mainly on the Dwemer, who are not essential to the invention of guns. Any culture in TES is capable of creating a gun. The machinery around the Hist in Blackwood Company proves technological advances without Dwemer are possible.

It focused mainly on the Dwemer because, at the time of the discussion which that quote fit the context for, it was widely accepted that if anyone were to develop guns in Tamriel, it would be the Dwemer, as they are the race that is philosophically opposed to magic in the literal sense, the superiority of gods, and really the whole mythical subgradient structure of the universe.

As for the machinery around the Hist, I have not yet seen it as I haven't yet finished the FG questline, but excuse me while I go open that interior in the CS.
OK, back now. And as for the machinery, who's to say a lot of those aren't Dwemer parts? The pipes in that room look an awful lot like the steam pipes in Dwemer ruins scattered all throughout Vvardenfell. And before we get into, "See! They were using Dwemer tech!", realize that they could have simply discovered the apparatus and pulled it for their own devices, not knowing in the slightest how to fully build it themselves? And I'll even go so far as to argue that the machinery at the end of the FG questline is out of place in TES. Ask yourself, if such machinery were available for merc thugs who stole a supposed Hist tree from Argonia, then why aren't there far more notable examples in the world itself? Why aren't such gearworks and steam-driven devices fairly common, at least to those nobles who could afford it? Why aren't city gates powered by gearworks and steam? It would add defense to your city to have your gates closed tightly by intense pressure as opposed to a metal or wooden barricade or lock.

The idea that culture is focused on magic as powerful projectiles is true, but any group with no access to teachings or pools of magicka may try to develop something that simulates it, and this is where the gun comes in.

Except where's the past precedent for it? That statement assumes socio-industrial development patterns of Tamriel mirror and produce the same results as socio-industrial development patterns of earth. Despite the bureaucracy of the Mages Guild, the creation of the guild itself has revolutionized the accessibility of magic. They even forced their rivals to change their acceptance practices to compete. Before Galerion, people were limited to the intensely selective island of Arateum, or becoming a svck-up apprentice to some magickal baron. There were no ready magickal services, no spells or enchantments for sale in the streets. If you're looking for the perfect framework for widespread denial of magicka that stimulates development, that would be it. And yet no guns developed in the long stretch of magickal elitism. Why? Their industrial and technological development was at the same level then as now in the 4th era. I mean, the bow has been in existence in Mundus since creation in the Dawn era, when the Aedra walked Nirn and Auriel shot Shor's bleeding heart into the eastern sea with his BOW. If bows have been in existence since the very beginning, then why hasn't progress occurred before now, especially when times were more ripe for progress in the previous eras?

That might be an indicator that Tamriel's socio-industrial progress is not on the same linear track as Earth's socio-industrial progress.

Alchemy in the real world led to important discoveries, and eventually led to chemistry. By saying the two cannot be compared is ridiculous. If an alchemist found a new combination of ingredients that could ignite with explosive results, he would want to use it and sell it. Something this novel, could bring a nice price. As it spreads across Tamriel, people will be experimenting with it and a primitive gun may be invented.

Except alchemy in the real world didn't exist. It does in TES, and not just as a mask for chemistry. Alchemy is using supernatural magickal components harvested from within mundane properties of flora and fauna.
Explosive results? Combine any one of the following: Fire Salts, Congealed Putrescence, Flame Stalk, Steel-blue Entoloma, Hunger Tongue, Spiddal Stick, and Imp Gall. And that's just within Cyrodiil. Now, we might get the argument, "well that's just fire damage, not explosives." Fire damage can be seen as the game-mechanic equivalent of explosive results. And just as with the magickal deprival means of attaining guns, it would appear that alchemists have had access to explosive results in their work for eras past, and they have neglected to develop firearms despite that.

(If memory serves, and it may not, I recall hearing about a cannon in TES, in which case there would have to be some sort of black powder or other means to use it, and it also means the idea of a firearm is floating around in TES.)

The cannon reference is from a Daggerfall joke book, IIRC, which simply took several real-world jokes and swapped the context-sensitive words out. It is hardly an authoritative canon source (no pun intended).

Well, in response to his post, he says that if anyone were to have a gun, it would be the Dwemer. But then he says that the Dwemer are not technologically driven. If it didn't server them any purpose, they aren't going to have developed a gun. A gun that might be implemented would be relatively simple in construction anyway. In fact, for once, Qawsed is right; the trigger mechanism would be similar to that of a crossbow. The only real difference is that would have a matchlock.

Relatively simple in construction is a relative term. What might be fairly feasible (or even within the scope of imagination) in our world is, once again, not the same as being feasible or even imaginable within Mundus. Really, if guns had been possible, wouldn't one of the Daedra have slipped one to a mortal, thereby throwing out another curve-ball to make the Daedric games of mortal-toying far more interesting? If the Aedra arrived in Nirn with bows already at their side, then why did they not arrive with flintlocks? Or hell, why didn't they arrive with fully automatic weaponry? If such things were possible in the first place, then why did those who created the world, why did those those who everyone is a subgradient of, not introduce them from the beginning to aid with their wars against the [Trickster/Convincer] Lorkhan/Shor?
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