You didn't read a thing I said.

It's the most chosen because it provides the best bang for your buck, so to speak. It's accurate and not the hardest to pull off, but your optimum heel kick will, always and undeniably be a lot more powerful than a optimum roundhouse kick.



Not being a national kickboxing champion; I may not know, but I'm guessing the biggest part of succeeding in the sport is simply not allowing yourself to get kicked in the head?

I'm assuming that you've just never been kicked very hard in the head before.. if you had, you wouldn't be the national champion. My point being, obviously you've never received a nasty head injury before, avoiding injury in kickboxing is just as important as inflicting it.

I read it. I also said it was calculated to deliver the most force. I edited it in there though.

And even Mirko Cro Cop has been knocked in the dome a couple of times. fighters do actually practice and thats where many injuries occur

id like to see hand to hand. however, instead of competing with armed combat in terms of damage. id prefer it to be a combat style focused on disabling (high chance of disarm, stun, knockdown, knockout) and defense (dodge/evade) than straight out damage. dealing.

Calculated by whom, and what were the circumstances/participants?



Well, it's always been like that in some sense. The primary issue has been that its basically just punchpunchpunchpunchpunchpunchpunchpunchpunchpunch until the opponent falls down or dies. Hardly intuitive. It's even less realistic than kicking being included

Though, yes, disarming has been vacant for a while, and that's really what needs to be included most. Once your opponent is disarmed, then kicking would certainly start to show it's usefulness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maQINqPI7S0

one second... looking for the other videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KjZegbUxZo&feature=related

Don't bother. A TV show is not a credible scientific source in the slightest.

It appears to be a biased study, too (if it can be called a study at all). The kick he uses is efficient, (accurate and consistent) but that doesn't mean that it's the most powerful. Either way, it was a good watch, but as I said it's not scientific at all. Since the kick is efficient, that's why it works best in planned area matches against nearly naked opponents. However a heel kick will generate the highest kinetic output, and will have the highest likelihood to kill it's target. The reason it's rarely used by kickboxers is because it's inaccurate and inconsistent. A failure to perform it properly can cost you a match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfnGkV6qmTw&feature=related

What is a credible source then? If me and the other fella tell you we disagree, you may not listen. If I say that all the professional fighters I know choose tradition thai kicks you would still disagree. Ive also seen people claim the thai kick as the best in Human Weapon.

I think Im veering off topic though so I guess we may ever know

it doesnt really matter what type of kick is the hardest because more importantly... i think all sane people would prefer to be super ultra thai judochop roundhouse heel kicked in the head then have a sword swung at there head.. and they can be moved tremendously fast so saying a kick has more chance of hitting is rather daft if i may say so.. admitedly both can kill you but i think more people have been killed by swords then tatsumaki senpuukyakus

Kicking could be useful to get an opponent on the floor then execution. You deflect and opponents blow to both of your weapons are out to the side a well timed kick or trip could be the difference between life or death.

The issue is not a matter of experience it's a matter of basic kinetic principles. You are arguing about the best fighting techniques, I am arguing about what formation of kick has the highest kinetic potential; there is no [censored] disagreeing, what I'm stating is a basic fact, you may as well argue with the existence of gravity. The fact of the matter is that the formation and execution principle of a full spinning heel kick will produce the largest amount of torque and kinetic energy. The guy who kicks best in the world (in the videos you posted) just happens to use a roundhouse kick because it is the most efficient technique, obviously he is not going to be a able to do a monstrous heel kick because he never practiced in it. If you were to take two equally strong and equally skilled men, the man who practices the heel kick will produce the highest kinetic output when he impacts with a force plate. The other man may be able to kick faster, and kick more consistently (ergo he'd do better in a planned fight) but the man with the heel kick will still produce the the kick with the most raw power. A full 360 degree spinning kick will always produce more torque, the point of impact is also further towards the end of the pendulum so the highest possible kinetic output will be reached.

I'm not arguing about which one is better, clearly the Roundhouse is a better and more constant fighting technique, but do not deny the obvious, a spinning heel kick will exert the most raw energy on impact. I've derailed this enough, and I've got to sleep. Good night



Yeah, this is basically what I'm hoping for, it doesn't need to be some ridiculous flurry of "kung-fu" kicks.

I'm all for kicks. Hell, I'd even dig the ability for hand-to-hand fighters to GRAPPLE.


The fact is, Hand-to-Hand fighting has a singular, major advantage over heavily armored combatants wielding their big swords: SPEED

A hand-to-hand fighter in light to no armor could run CIRCLES around a soldier in full plate. Armor has weaknesses and joints. Armor has mass. Armor limits your range of motion. A truly skilled hand-to-hand fighter could disarm your typical soldier before he blinked... and then would likely kill him with his own weapon. (Or maybe a heel kick to the cranium? :tongue: )

There's a lot of talk about why it doesn't work against armor... but let's be honest here... we've all seen what an angry and un-trained person can do with their bare hands when they get angry. I've witnessed first-hand a police officer get the living bejeezus beaten out of him (having a -gun-... albeit using rubber bullets) by someone half his size and a third his weight (and a girl, no less) using her bare hands and feet.

If she had been a criminal, and not an instructor, he would have been dead. Body armor... gun... it doesn't matter. You can still snap a neck while it's wearing platemail. Especially when you look at Elder Scrolls armor and realize that there's no neck-guards on ANY of those suits.

Hand-to-hand DOESN'T work, however, the way that Bethesda has made it. It's a [censored] throw-away skill... only useful if you use it as a backup. It needs some serious updates if it wants to contend with any of the weapon-based combat that this game is having to offer.

Just punching over and over isn't going to cut it anymore.

So you kick in the face with your superior member ?

What kind of quadruped are you ?


About MA again.
If i was to use somethig agaisnt an armored opponent it CERTAINLY wouldn t be a striking martial art. I did Thai, Karate, Tae Kwon Do and Aikido. And setled for Aikido and Thai.
And punching a leather armor is almost hopeless, kicking a armored rigid opponent is suicide.
it will be a one shot issue you miss, your dead.
Again all it have to do is make the blow land harmessly on armor just changing surface angle so it deflect most of the blow and slash your limber like it would cut a pig.
Thai fighters (not those in championship) will elbow strike your punch attempt and break your fingers, then good luck fighting with a broken hand.

Even UFC and the like are a bad jokes in fighting quality its show off where jiu jitsu pay off, there s more: no no than: can do.

If i where to fight someone armed it would go Aikido, evade/block grab and throw, only once opponent is on the ground i would think of punching of kicking it make wayyyy more sense. Althought the best would be follow aikido and hapkido grab and break while throwing: Elbow, wrist or shoulder, you choose the weakest point.

+1

however, considering they might not be willing to work on the new animations of the hand to hand you described, id be satisfied with the effects (neck snaps, throws, disarming) being there even if the animation doesnt show it. another thing they'd have to do is implement armor better and make heavy armor wearing guys move, attack and TURN slower. this way the running circles situation you described could actually happen. in OB, you could twirl like a ballerina no matter what armor you had on.

i would like to see it, I would love to see some MMA style moves thrown in with melee, like forward-power attack its a elbow to the face. Side power is a Muay Thai kick to the face, that would be quite nice to see

This is so wrong...
The policemen was untrained, untrained people are always the weaker part. Shoot a knee with rubber bullet, or shoot a let twice and the victim is slowed. There s also the fact that he wasnt willing to hurt the instructor... a rubber bullet shot in the head, even if marginal... game over.
His problem wasn t the armor it was his lack of knowledge in self defense.
Running circle on heavy armor... good luck on that, turning ain t running.. A very very common mistake.
The moment roun stop running to try something it will be in defense able to strike you.
Remember you have to run outside his weapon arc that mean farther than kick, punch and leap reach.
You obviouly lack melee weapon training.

Also,in Bethesda you always start a looser. You re gonna have to find a lot of crabs and rats..lol.

I agree with you punching doesn t do it anymore. But imagine how hard it would be to implement a nice martial art ingame.

Assuming it's not in the game is just absurd, think about it. They've discussed all the things we can do with the dual wield mechanics, having a sword in one hand and a spell or shield in the other, or two swords, a sword and a mace etc. Do they really need to blatantly state that if you do not equip anything in either hand you can punch people? Will people seriously just assume hand to hand is out because Bethesda never said "It is in."?

IN he dark ages when I took some karate, our sensei took us out into the frozen parking lot to practice in our winter attire (jackets, pack boots, etc.) It was :chaos:, and good learnin'

As for kicks and stuff, it'd look pretty, and would be interesting to have some boots that fortify your H2H

BUT, then people would ask for specific race attacks like the Argonian bite and tail whip, the cat 4-claw attack, etc

Also, I highly doubt they'll have kicks.....H2H hasn't really been their priority in the past two games from what can tell. :shrug:

Force is not determined just by torque. We all now about speed and mass etc, what makes a blow have the most force is the ratio of speed to effective mass you get into the blow. The problem with heel kicks is the effective mass in the blow is much less. Sure the same 180 pound guy might be doing it, but less of his body's mass is in the blow compared to a basic round house shin kick.

Though according to mythbusters boxers delivered the most force, but hey you don't accept TV. The leg might be stronger so the instinct is to think kicks are more powerful, but in boxing punches you use your legs, butt, arms, everything to hit the guy. Now the only reason boxing blows work is because of gloves, you'd break your hands without them, but they deliver absurd force when executed properly.

I agree! Think how fast a Katana could be moved. I remember the triple kill from the draw on deadliest warrior (a cheep and inaccurate program i know) its was still fast and there is plenty of other swords out there that are fast also.

Oh my God no. Baseless Hollywood Bologna. A well trained armored and armed opponent would dice a bare knuckles fighter without a worry. When talking about a theoretical real life situations like this you have to throw out all anime and movie notions that a man in plate with be as slow as a turtle and clumsy. Generally speaking, if you go out in the field in plate and scale you are VERY likely to be well trained in moving about in it as well as know how to use your weapon effectively and ALSO how to use wrestling and grappling moves when it *did* get too close for comfort. As we should know from a plethora of old sword arts manuals from Germany and other parts of Europe, knighs were well trained in hand to hand combat as well; heck, half of their fighting moves were based on disarming opponents or wrestling them to the ground.

Hate to break your heart here, Sykes, but I've FOUGHT in full-armored plate. There's no anime or movie references in my knowledge of ancient armor.

If you've never had to wear the suit of armor... try to move with the joints... try to balance your own weight with that of your weapon (and shield, if you had one like me)... then you really have no grounds upon which to base your claim. Our study group had to practice for almost six months in the practice suits before being custom fitted for actual plate. In that time, we had to learn all of the basic (historically documented) combat strategies which could actually be attributed to knights. Unfortunately, this is a fairly small amount of information to go on... so really a lot of the practice was guess work on behalf of historians.

For those six months, we had to learn to balance a sword and shield... to use pole-arm sweeps... how to properly apply the use of a blunt weapon... all while not being able to raise your hand up high enough to scratch your head or wipe the sweat from your face. It was miserable, and awesome, all at the same time... but moreover, it hurts like hell.

Armor will wear you down -fast-. There's no Oblivion-style fatigue reduction perk for practicing in it. Even if you have the Endurance of a Roman God... the weight of plate armor, and the inflexibility of its joints will tax you until you're ready to drop. The lighter the plate, the longer you can fight... but the less protection it provides against a mace. It's a trade-off, no matter how you look at it.

When we finally got fitted for the real thing, it was much higher quality... and much easier to use... but you were still slow as all hell. Just trying to walk in a pair of armored boots was tiring... and I'd been doing it since early August. By the time February came around, and we got to do a few mock battles in our own armor, most of us had gotten good enough where we could keep on par in the guys who were using chain armor and leather with swords and shields. Almost. They still could move much better, because they didn't have to deal with the rigid plates not bending in the same ways the human body can.

An unarmored opponent using hand-to-hand tactics or a single short knife? We wouldn't have stood a chance. There is absolutely no comparison in speed and reaction time between an individual in heavy armor and one who is unarmored. None. If you were lucky, you might see them coming before they could get to you and call for assistance.

Against two or more enemies, an unarmored hand-to-hand or short-blade user would have difficulty... but one-on-one, the favor is distinctly in favor of the unarmored opponent, every time.

That being said, I "killed" my fair share of footsoldiers in quilted armor and chain wielding daggers. It really all depends on the intelligence of the attacker... and whether or not they get the drop on you. Armor versus Unarmored has nothing to do with skill or power, and everything to do with speed and agility.

No anime or Hollywood physics here. Just plain-old-fashioned archaeology/anthropology nerd-dom.

(Bear in mind, of course, that I only had six months to practice. A knight would have had longer... but by the time six months were up, you basically knew how the armor could and could not move. The rest was up to skill, which always varies somewhat.)

Yup. Kicks, blocks, joint locks, throws, disarms, ect.

Species-specific martial arts would also be a blessing.

Exactly, Agree 101%

The thing people need to remember about European style knights is their armor was build to survive large scale Calvary charges. This is not armor that's necessarily built for one on one combat, unless that one on one combat is with another heavily armored knight. An unarmored opponent would have a distinct and glaring advantage against a heavily armored opponent simply for the fact that Heavily armored soldiers were never meant to fight lightly armored opponents in one on one combat. I do hope heavy armor is portrayed correctly in Skyrim, the ability to deflect many sword blows, but it should greatly decrease your mobility and agility in combat.

Unarmed should be a defensive -> offensive oriented fighting style. Wear out your opponent (parry their attacks) - disarm or knock them down - and then beat them down to a pulp with strikes and kicks after they are weaponless or on the ground. Not exactly a fighting style suited to taking on multiple opponents at one time, but it should definitely have a lot of use when fighting a single opponent.

Lol. Let's all make Chuck Norris characters :toughninja:

Feet are for walking. Hands are for hitting. Or shaking. Or waving. Sometimes for clapping.
-M'aiq the Liar