I've read some disturbing lines of reasoning in this forum. I think the next questions resume the entire topic:
"How can a no-magic, no-bow, sword fighter fight a dragon (or other flying creature)?"
"How can a backstab/bow thief fight a dragon (or other non backstabbable and melee-strong creature)?

Well, what's the problem with answering "He can't"?

The fighter is perfectly able to pick up a bow. If he refuses to do that, well, tough luck, he won't be hunting dragons.


Please don't force the designers to simplify the game to allow any character, no matter how idiotically he chose his skills, to beat any challenge.

I don't mind finding a dungeon only a pure fighter has a chance of surviving, a quest only a master thief can complete or a creature that has to be beaten by a precise combination of magic, stealth and melee.

That sounds good in theory, especially if we are talking about an MMO or at least an online game that you can go in with a team, but in a single-player game, you would be limiting content. That's generally not something Bethesda does. They also don't like forcing you to pick a certain class to play the game. Now, if mercenaries/companions are more capable in this game than they have been in the past, it will be easy (or at least easier) to compensate for your weaknesses in that way.

theres plenty of art depicting knightish men with shields deflecting fire with a shield and a sword in the other hand. thiefs are usually very agile and therefore could easily just dodge a dragons attacks. you just have to use some creativity. the point to the free will is to play the game the with a style you customize. all weapons are made to kill; they just go about it in different ways.

I must say, I agree completely. Well said :thumbsup:

this is just inviting flaming... This is ridiculous. And you're logic is backwards; If they didn't find a way for all classes to be able to deal with equal problems, if the only solution was to become a warrior- THAT would be simplifying. The ability to create different routes to one solution is a far more complex design.

I think a crippled Dragonborn should be able to search every cave and dungeon... Vote Yes this coming Sunday at your local registered voting locations for mandatory handicap ramps in all locations with desirable loot and fierce monsters

"How can a no-magic, no-bow, sword fighter fight a dragon (or other flying creature)?"

A fair question, he takes a sword and shield and keeps moving out of the dragons long distant ability range ( fire/Ice/Lightning etc etc etc ) until it perchs down on the ground which he then charges at it with his shield ready to block or deflect and attack before hacking and slashing at it.

It should definitely be much harder for you to beat Dragons if you choose to play as a stealth or melee character.

Maybe similar to the trailers we have seen?

This is TES, the following does not apply :
"Hi there, are you the town locksmith? good, I was wondering, I have plenty of coin, could you teach me a thing or two. I happened on an old fort, and had to banish some undead. There was a large chest, but no key. I was thinking if I learned some basic picking it would stand me in good stead"
"Warrior you say"
"Sorry? I didn't say that at all"
"Says here warrior. Not thief. You can never ever learn any lockpicking. Good day."

I kind of agree, especially when it comes to the MQ. However, I always thought it was weird that I could complete the mages guild quest line in OB without really ever touching magic. As long as it didn't mean you ended up with your game screwed, I wouldn't mind if some content was off limits for certain builds (or unless you went away and levelled up some of those skills needed).

Exactly. I think the thief guild was better desingned in that you actually had to use at leat a bit of stealth and lockpicking.

I really don't like a pure wizard reaching the highest ranks of the fighters guild, unarmed and dressed in a pink starred toga. I also don't like a pure warrior becoming archmage while hidden under a quarter metric ton of steel and solving problems by repeatedly hitting them with a tree sized iron girder.

And, most of all, I don't mind leaving content for my second character, or third, or fourth...

You are missing his point. He doesn't say that at all. He doesn't say "the game should make choices for us". He says, "we make our choice". He says, "you are a thief and it is a dragon. Let's be real."

Also that's not TES anymore. TES was at fault when it made you some omnipotent demi-god. Now the new motto is, "You can do anything but you can't do everything." I am glad at this change as a TES fan.

my second or third character will be pretty much pure thief with light armor dual wielding shortswords or daggers and a bow. unless the magic system is really good in which case a mage will be my second character. i think people are forgetting about alchemy. hopefully you can make some nasty poisons and simply shoot the dragon run and take cover, wait for the poisons effects to wear off and then do it again over and over again. if anything a good thief character should have it easier than a pure melee character.

i also dont by warriors not using bows and arrows. all knights were trained in archery if for no other reason than to go hunting.

I appreciate I am not addressing the point directly. What I mean is in TES, a 'pure' build, something you will find in a lot of games, is almost a niche build. You can only perk up so many skills, and unless you powergame and put loads of time and effort in, you won't max out all your skills, but any build that is, shall we say uninspired but vaguely sensible, should be able to approach things in a few different ways. Of course the OP is right in that a massively defined build that totally excludes say melee or magic should miss out on some content, i am just saying those builds may not be very common, that is all.

I found the thieves guild easiest with my pure mage.

Hehe, I kind of agree with both sides: To the OP yeah, if someone chooses to spend all their perks in pickpocketing skills and armor crafting/blacksmithing, they should get easily trampled by a dragon. But at the same time, assuming players have any skill at all, melee, archers and mages should all be able to do enough damage that, assuming they survive long enough, they can whittle down a dragons health to eventually fell the beast.

Well, when you put it that way... I suspect, Skyrim will be hardcoe for everyone, pure or hybrids. The power is now divided. No unlimited POWER!

It's something they should do, what's the point in an RPG if there is no replayability, limiting content for the choices you make means there are stuff left to do when you start a new character.
Being able to do everything made me not want to replay Oblivion, no point to it, all I could do was use a different skill-set and race but the game was still exactly the same.


My mind wandered to Elder Scrolls V: AniméRym. (Could we have some CP9 skywalk too?)


No, that means that you can't accept that you cannot deal with a problem, so you choose to become a warrior simply so you can take them down.
It shouldn't be an equal world, it's an RPG for Willis' sake, depending on the character you craft you will be good in some areas and horrible in others.
If your character is not fit for fighting a dragon then it's a choice you've made, this character will be better in areas that your dragon killer character will not.
We already have Dragon Shouts right? So what about some Dragon Shouts for characters not fit to fight dragons that allows them to evade or escape them?

Just cause there's dragons in the game doesn't mean that every one should be able to kill them.
You choose whether you want to steer your character towards a path that allows him/her to be able to defeat them.
It doesn't mean you have to become the same character over and over, learn to accept that certain characters have certain flaws preventing them from achieving feats that others can.

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BUT! The main quest should be completable for any and all kinds of characters, so if you have to fight a dragon or two during the main quest and it's not an option to run away then allow for something around you to be used as weapons, for a thief character you could have some pillar that you could try to push over them, or maybe a chandeler(?) that you can shoot with a bow to drop on it's head.
Or yknow, simply don't design the game so that a dragon fight is unavoidable. :shrug:
As for Alduin or whatever his name is; I guess these characters will need to use strategy, using Dragon Shouts only while evading the dragon.

[edit2]

Think about it like this: The more content you're locked out of cause of the way you designed your character the more content you have for subsequent playthroughs.
Doesn't mean there won't be anything to do, just means that you will occasionally find quests that you cannot finish or even start.
Or well, you might be able to finish the quest, but maybe not the way you wanted to finish it.
(Like how in New Vegas if you don't have a good Speech then certain quests can roll down a bad path, can still finish them, but not the way I wanted to.)

I came in expecting more whining about the stupid compass, but instead found wisdom. Well-put, OP.

I mostly agree, however the game needs to be balanced to some extent. Pure professions should have strengths and weaknesses, but in no way should they be so debilitating, that it is impossible to complete most of the game going down such a path. Struggling to do so is fine, requiring great preparation, ingenuity, and tactics is fine, but being absolutely impossible no matter what is not fine.

I agree completely.

What's the point of any game without replayability? For my own personal choice, I can't stand games with no replay value. But there are many choices and paths to choose that make another character viable. You can't always do everything with only one character. And if you are roleplaying, you can play good and bad (although there is definitely not nearly enough choice for good and bad - it seems mostly neutral). A lot of players would disagree with there being no point to replay Oblivion or Morrowind.

I couldn't roleplay in Oblivion though, it had no dialogue, no choices, no options to quests, just linearity.
I could make believe that my character said si or so but I'm left with repetitive topic dialogue and no real choice.
Maybe I'm just spoiled by dialogue from other RPG's, I just cannot go back to picking up two toy soldiers and engaging in a 2 hour debate between the two like I could when I was six.

So allowing me to do everything, every quest, side with every faction, up every skill, it left me with nothing for another playthrough.
Do I want to play through the exact same game and use a different skill set? No.
I don't replay an FPS and use a shotgun instead of the assault rifle.
Same thing for me, it might be open world and have named NPC's and allow me more freedom, but ultimately I will do the same main quest in the same way just with a different strategy, just like I would in the FPS by only using shotgun.
Same with the sidequests, they will stay the same, with the same outcome and dialogue will stay the same too.
For me it's too linear, it might have an RPG stamp and a big open world but for me the design was still far too linear.

Well the tool thieves and such are given to take down dragons is the dragonshouts. At least I look at them as a way for Bethesda to give everyone a chance to fight dragons.