So I play hardcoe mode, love it. Then I decided to knock it up a notch an play in hard mode too. Next thing I know, I get killed by night crawlers who somehow got through my power armor.
I mean, what is power armor made of that an over-sized rattle snake can bite through it?
I thought DT would be great for this game. And it was! But simply cranking up damage and health on enemies is not great. It's dumb. It's just like Fallout 3 where you had to empty out all your ammo into a super mutant and then whack the thing in melee a few times for good measure because you hit level 30 and the game is level scaled.
DT is great because it's realistic, because getting shot doesn't necessarily mean you get hurt when you're wearing super-hard ceramic plating all over. But cranking up enemies' damage ruins that.
Moreover, isn't that the whole thing behind DPS, where high DPS was meant to take out unarmored opponents? Why not follow that through? Sure, some opponents will be as good as ragdolls to players in heavy armor, but at least armor choice will be more rewarding and the game will be more fun and realistic.
I'm going to have to turn normal mode back on. Otherwise the game won't make sense.

For me, the game makes a lot more sense with a mod that eliminates DT bleedthrough. As is, 20% of damage always gets through DT for some reason, meaning a Mingun firing Hollow Points is stupid effective against powered armor.

-Nukeknockout

Can you give me a link, please?

I can give you two links, actually. This http://www.newvegasnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=34872 just makes Damage Threshold hard, this one is to http://www.newvegasnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=40040, which basically expands the game while allowing you to mess around with the game rules, including DT bleedthrough.

Make sure to get the http://www.newvegasnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=36901 if you don't already have it. I dunno if you do, I just don't give out incomplete info xP

-Nukeknockout

I hope...really do hope, that Bethesda in the Next fallout, will actually make it 0%DT bleedthrough, and allow actual enemies to scale with you when leveling up. the 20% bleedthrough pisses me off on the console, as I wonder how the hell can a cleaver kill a Giant Radscorpion, or how a 9mm kills a man in power armor...ugh.

1: I agree with the no DT bleedthrough. I'm personally hoping we can get to a system where armor provides both DT & (starting at Medium) DR, with some armors providing Radiation Resistance, Fire Resistance, Poison Resistance, Energy Resistance...and with Power Armor providing the greatest of possible benefits.

2: I'm actually fine with enemies NOT scaling with you. The player's level wouldn't affect the composition of the NPC groupings, only the ease with which the player can deal with them. The solution is to create groupings that are threats even at very high levels to complement all the groups that really aren't threatening after a while. Ex: Giant Radscorpion does not become stronger as you level(or come in larger groups as you level), but Albino Radscorpions(on the map since the beginning in some locations) remain threats even at very great PC combat power.

3: Even in Fallout 1, it was possible to 1HKO Power Armored troopers with thrown rocks. I prefer not to overthink it, but I would say that, for one reason or another, the attacks in question ignored the enemy's armor. Either hitting a weak point, compounding the damage from an old wound, etc.

In general, I agree with you. But I really don't want level scaling back. I had really bad experiences with that in FO3, and no level scaling worked fine in FO2 & minimal level scaling works fine in New Vegas(most times).

-Nukeknockout

I think DR should be limited to drugs and perks. I see it more as pain resistance than anything.

Also, I hate scaling. All it does is make enemies unrealistic. All of a sudden, Fiends have plasma rifles and shooting a night crawler is like shooting rubber? Kills it for me.

It was worse in FO3, though.

BTW, thanks for the link!

level scaling or not, I don't really care about that really. However, this DT bleedthrough has to stop..I mean c'mon, it makes things much more challenging against higher leveled enemies (actually making you use armor piercing rounds against enemies like Radscorpions), instead of just firing away and killing htem with pure lead.

I agree, at least to a point. Perhaps there could be a sliding scale on bleed through based on the weapon being used. If a group of fiends are shooting at me with 9mm SMGs, they should be able to fire all day long with next to no damage to my PA, and no damage done to me. However, if someone hits me with a missile, then I should take at least a fair amount of damage simply because of the kinetic energy transfer provided my the missile. I.e., the more powerful the projectile being shot at me (or explosive, etc.) the more bleed through I should endure.

@Nukeknockout: Wouldn't you be referring to armor class, at least to some extent, in point 1?

As a personal peeve, I despise anything that ignores DT/DR. That type of effect is just not realistic. I understand that deathclaws are freakishly powerful and... deadly, but I can't understand how they can possibly use their claws to slice right through ceramic and hardened metal armor plate as if it weren't there.

genetics I believe, their claws are stronger then they look (some of the lore states the Deathclaws hide and claws are used in armor by tribals and weapons, pretty damn effective) and I believe they use cars and buildings to sharpen their claws (with limited success, most of them use their own claws to sharpen themselves, seeing as theri claws basically tear through concrete and metal after a few minutes of sharpening).

and your DT idea is perfect, it makes actual sense too, I mean if a football size object comes at you over 1,000 mph, and hits at your armor, I'm pretty sure that would hurt, even if the blast didn't damage you.

1: Well, when you compare the absolute value of Missile launcher damage vs 9mm SMG damage, you get that effect. Missiles deal 100 points of Impact damage alone, when the engine bothers to register it. Combat Armor(DT 15) would completely negate 9mm Pistol damage but only slightly help you against Missiles in the present system if bleedthrough was eliminated. I personally think it would be complicated to program increasing degrees of bleedthrough for various weapons. Better to either give ammunition an armor piercing effect or simply up the damage of the weapon beyond what any armor can protect against.

2: Armor Class? No. But I feel that, starting at military grade armor, you should get DR to represent purpose-built battle armor and give a real incentive to wear the heavier armors. Since Combat Armor is the first of what I define as "military armors" and it is Medium weight, that is what I referenced.

3: Deathclaws don't ignore DT/DR. They just deal tons of damage. I know, because I've gone toe to toe with them under the effects of Med-X & Slasher more than once. As for weapons that ignore DT/DR...I'm not big on realism, but for the Melee/Unarmed players, there has to be something that operates as the equivalent of AP bullets. In New Vegas, that would be Rippers, Chainsaws, and Thermal Lances.

-Nukeknockout

Lower the diff

Cheers

The problem isn't that it's hard. It's that it's unrealistic.

Whoop whoop, ''realism'' alert. Newsflash: you have magical lasers, ''plasma'' pistols, walking tank suits, multi-hundred-year-old-mutant humans, and so on. As soon as you bring ''realism'' into the debate, you lose the debate. The ultimate answer to your gripe is that gameplay balancing wins out in any game that doesn't svck.

Queue

so does being a Derp. You probably didn't notice but many people (including classic Fallout fans) don't enjoy this "DT Bleedthrough" idea, as it doesn't convey balance at all, but rather irritation at the highest level. by the time you have Power Armor in F:NV, your techinically almost lvl.30, have enough DT as it is to shrug off most petty attacks and Jackal Gangs, that you think of them as mere "Pests" rather then "enemies". So why put the bleedthrough idea on everything? Just to irritate you and make you realize that no matter what you do, you will always have something hitting at you despite your armor, thus giving love to medium or other armor classes (ESPECIALLY LIGHT ARMOR is being loved the most..ever notice the perks?) Magical Lasers?....we already have laser outputs that can make objects, and clothing burst into flames and cause 3rd degree burns against human skin. "Plasma" is already being sought and broken down into ideas of what it can be used for. Fallout: NV is around over 200 years from when the war broke out. In other words, most Super mutants are most likely 100 or so, but certainly not 200, otherwise we would have Behemoths all over the place :/ and their the oldest by far. Ghouls on the other hand are, but other then that, few aspects are unreal of course in Fallout such as Ghouls and radiation gifting them life, I hardly see the entire game as "UNREAL, BRO" when the ideas were placed on paper before (Gauss rifle being fake? the Navy's Railgun seems to be pretty much a large-and-in-charge Gauss Rifle basically)

so basically, why keep the DT bleedthrough crap? if taken out, not only does it inspire melee/unarmed/Explosive characters to armor up, but it also inspires Guns/Energy Weapons characters to get some heavy firepower when an enemy has some DT on it's side, instead of just blazing an area with 5mm and hope for the best. See what I did there? I named all the high benefits for this idea on all weapon classes. What do you got to say against that?

plus, if they won't go for a DT bleedthrough of 0%, at least decrease it to a reasonable 10%.

I have to say that your ''but it's so close to reality'' examples don't carry weight (I called them magical lasers because lasers don't work the way they do in any of the Fallout games, nor do plasmas, nor does radiation, nor do bullets... the list goes on), your super mutant example is laughable (growing super mutants is Fallout 3 BS, and only applies to the Capital wasteland ones regardless), and you basically said that less bleedthrough forces players to HAVE to use high damage weapons and high DT armor else they're ineffective which is the exact opposite of the gameplay principle of letting different playstyles succeed. The devs put in 20% bleedthrough for a reason and it wasn't because they threw darts at a dartboard to pick the percentage.

Using internet meme words like ''derp'' is also pretty lame.

Queue

It's not magic, it's SCIENCE!

Derp isn't a meme but an example of saying how stupid your remarks are. Magical Lasers? they do the same thing as our lasers do, using heat and instant-impact to convey damage, just like: OMG, A LASER!! you know, a hot beam of light from a frequency of color and radiation barreling down on an organic/inorganic substance, thus burning it. Bullets work the exact same thing like in reality does, they zip from the gun, instantly hit against the target, thus doing damage. Sure it doesn't kill a raider instantly when you fire down at someones skull, but the concept is still there. Super Mutant subject? look it up on wikia, their close to 300 years old, both east and west, you fail for not even having to click and look it up before even posting this. No it doesn't, your not paying attention, it doesnt force players to use high damage weapons, it makes the player think and switch to Armored piercing rounds for the target. Boom, dead. Was that so hard? Nothing else changes with the armor except the fact that the highest DT armor nullifies the pettiest attacks, and by the time you have the highest DT armor, you are techinically a demi-god...what's the difference? nothing. With 0% ->10% bleedthrough you actually can relax abit against Raiders and weaker enemies that actually don't scale with you. With 20% your always annoyed by how a simple 9mm can do some damage towards you, especially when they equip rapid fire weapons. The game itself isn't even balanced on what you think, basically showing all the love towards Light Armor, while bashing Heavy and Medium a few times. That's not very balanced now, isn't it?

p.s the 20%bleedthrough WAS indeed a idea, from 15% (which not many people complained about, it was actually pretty decent of DT bleedthrough) to a little jump up 20%. Anything like this is referred to as ideas or guesses on what to tweak in games.
Back then it was actually balanced out (sort of, Heavy actually got the good end of the stick, if they had the perks like now from F:NV, Light, Medium, and Heavy would be a bit balanced then, showing that people with Light could be faster, and get less critical chances of the enemy hitting them with a critical hit, while Heavy armor would increase DR, thus reducing the amount of damage done to you overall)

and Derp came from the term from Basketball from Southpark Creators, came into the slang and urban use, then suddenly became meme.
Basketball-->Slang (actual usage of the word)--->meme. So yes, I'm actually using the term "Derp" correctly.

Derp is a meme. Your avatar is a meme.

You're confusing science fiction with reality.

Your argument seems to boil down to ''light armor gets all the love.'' You can have it as an opinion, but that's not worth much. Why not? Because the game's done. 20% is the final answer. Deal with it and get over yourself.

Queue

wow really? -facepalm-...1. we're talking about the Next Fallout game, not now, why would I complain about now? and it doesn't and I'm not, your the one who seems to be confused. Instead of actually looking up evidence to back up your statements like I have, all you have been doing is raging and simply being ignorant and thinking "no matter what he says, I'm right". Until you actually have evidence to back up your 'magical' lasers, "Light armor gets all the love" bullcrap, and "Derp is a meme" term, then I have nothing to say to a fool who can't do a simple backup on their part of the debate, and thus fails on a high level in conversations. Good day sir.

I would only like the no DT bleedthrough if it was on hardcoe mode only, or enabled as an option.

I don't want to have to use max charge cells just to damage some enemies.

Headshots do double damage, Psycho helps, and it's worth noting that pretty much only Legion Centurions, NCR Veteran Rangers, & BoS Paladins would require that much force.

-Nukeknockout

I think you can discuss the bleedthrough rate, not the idea itself, though.
Power Armor is neither magically enchanted, nor does it come with some anti-matter force field, or whatever.
In the end it's just a pile of metal with servo motors, a fission battery and some share of plastics and carbon fibre materials.
So yup, if you fire enough rounds you should score some effects somewhen much later.
Also, there are weakpoints around the joint areas which aren't covered in metal.
And lets not pretend the system wouldn't work.
In my current playthrough a fiend with a RCW does next to no damage to me in my Gecko-backed reinforced Leather Armor.
Your reasoning about the Radscorp is even less understandable.
A razorsharp steel cleaver cutting through chitine? Why not? That is by far more a question of the wearers swinging power, than the blade itself.

Right, then what's the point of hardcoe mode? And the survival skill? Hell, what's the point of the game, period? Why not just play pong, if realism is unimportant.
Obviously, the game is sci-fi. But you're just being a [censored] and refusing to consider others' perspective on what makes a good game.

Just install Project Nevada, set all options to vanilla, and then set the DT bleedthrough to whatever you like. There's even an ingame menu where you can change it in 5 seconds. Personally, I think I'll be turning hardcoe off.The game's slow enough as it is, doesn't need all that micromanagement.