Yes you could drop gold in Morrowind but it was still weightless.

I can understand your opinion, and it is true for a lot of things, but as for console players mods are not (unfortunately at this time) an option, and some things such as the money issue needs to be addressed in my opinion and food and drink in a tavern instead of being red when you look at it should have an option to buy it ,.. ect,...

thanks worm, I could have sworn so also, but wasn't sure of it, tks

I don't think wieght contributed much to their decision to make gold locked into inventory in OB

This is opinion and thanks for yours, but yours and mine dont have to meet, we just looking at it from different angles here not trying to judge, I will admit to too much, if others agree that some elements just are not enough sometimes.

Please people b4 cursing the whole idea of thieves breaking into your house, read my earlier posting on pg1 about how I would like to see it done by npc thieves if it were implemented.

It's been a long, long time since I played vanilla, but you do have the option to buy drinks in taverns. Not the ones on display, think of those as placeholders the bartender puts out to show what's available.

You don't need mods for any of the things I mentioned. All you need is willpower.

Weighted money and thievery would be far more annoying than they would be entertaining, and I don't think Bethesda should spend time developing these things just to put a toggle on them for the fraction of players who would use them.

Also, responded to posts with "Well, that's your opinion but my opinion is different" is not very healthy for discussion.

I am not trying to argue, I am looking for healthy discussion, and was not being sarcastic of the person, I was truly thanking them for their opinion, though it does deviate from mine as does yours on the theft of items or money from my home, I think it crazy (personally) to expect no thief to try and obtain goods from my home, when I am known to be wealthy in game and word would get around among thieves I am sure, why should I receive amnesty when others (although npc) should not ? I would hope to hear of thievery and such in game and the laws response to it, it just would make me, as a thief type especially, feel a part of the world.

Why does realism = immersion?

I thought immersion was how well the game kind of svcked you in to it. So you wouldn't notice the time going by. Like you could be playing for 2 hours, but it only felt like 1 hour...

You could be playing some game that is hardly realistic at all, but still find yourself immersed into the game.

So why is everyone on this forum banging on about how they want to their character to have to eat, and sleep, and only be able to carry a few things, because it "adds to immersion" and if those features aren't there it will "break immersion". No it won't, it just wont be as realistic...

EDIT: All these things that people are wanting for this hardcoe mode would "break immersion" for me, not add to it. A realistic game does not mean an immersive one.

For me it's not so much about any ideal level of realism or "immersion," I just enjoy the game more with some of these features.

It's more challenging and balanced (in other words, more fun) for me if I can't carry as much inventory, or if enemies are more difficult to beat, or if healing potions only work slowly over a long period of time, or if merchant prices are more expensive, or if my character cannot become rich too easily at lower levels, etc.

Regarding the eating, drinking and sleeping thing, it gives me a reason to be excited about finding food and drink items, or for example to suddenly run into an inn after wandering through the mountains for while nearly dying of starvation or dehydration.

Immersion is where Beth is best. Create your character, and live another life in another world. Not like Bioware with the pre-set characters...

They already have.
The concept is called, "Not clicking 'Load Game'".

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And I must agree with DirtyStarfish, Immersion and Realism are too completely different things!
Realism is: "Could this be possible in real life?" or "How would this occur in real life?"
Immersion is to be immersed into something, which means to delve into something, and in a game, it would be how well a game can pull you into the world in which you play. For the less imaginative, realism plays a part in this, but for the imaginative, it doesn't really play a big part at all.

I don't consider a driving desire for immersive aspects or realism to be the hallmark of a hardcoe RPG player. Instead, I would consider it an attribute of a hardcoe immersionist or of a hardcoe realist. A hardcoe RPG player is someone I envision as determined to adhere to the rules of role-playing no matter what. First among those rules is to act only on knowledge available to your character. In Morrowind, I know where to find the Dragonbone Cuirass, but my character does not. If I march my character off to where the Cuirass lies so that my character may acquire it, then I am not playing the role. Suppose I try to rationalize it by telling myself, "Oh, my character likes to explore, so he might as well explore ... over there!" Even then, my character's action is directed by knowledge he does not possess. Worlds with static placement of rewards make replay extremely challenging for a true hardcoe RPG'er.

On my first playthrough of Skyrim, I plan to stick to having my character act only on what my character knows -- which should be easy because I won't know what's around until my character does. After that first playthrough, things will get tougher, and I will probably find myself slacking off.

That's why it's a mode, so you wouldn't be forced to use it.

Define Immersion.

Immersive in that you lose track of time and play the game a lot?

Or that you actually think you are inside the game?

I dont see the inclusion of this feature, or that feature 'immersive' so to speak. Since those things were done with imagination and dice rolls in P&P RPG games. Also I can self impose any rule I want since Im the DM in this single player medium.

Yeah I know, It was more of an example than a complaint or anything.

Some aspects of realism have to be inset in game or the game loses playability also, dont you agree ? for me that includes if something could happen to a npc in game, it could happen to me aspect, (what fun or HORROR depending on the event), I also am sure I will love skyrim no matter what, because they (beth/TES) always please, but I am saying there are a few things I would like to see changed is all, maybe you dont, or want some things I dont, all is good, this is a dream catcher for RPG realists, whatever your definition of that may be, I dont need or even desire the true death or having to eat or drink aspects but theieves and money changes I would like to see also for my own enjoyment would love to be required to seek safe haven from adverse weather conditions sometimes.

This is difficult topic, as for some "RPG" is really just G, without RolePlaying in it. And then hardcoe is just making the game difficult for the player.

For me, the RP in RPG isn't about game difficulty or the game forcing me to eat, drink, sleep.



I second this. For many things, I can roleplay those even if the game doesn't ask for it.

Realism != immersion.

Options for realism are great, but it's not immersion, Realism is often making game hard for the player who plays the game, which has nothing to do with role-playing, it's just "being better" playing the game. It's OK to have options for those who enjoy "beating a game". This is also something some consider "hardcoe".

With role-playing it should be more about the skills of the character in the game, not the skill of the one who plays the game. And as mentioned, as long as I can choose to roleplay and do something (e.g. eat, drink, sleep at the inn, etc), the game does not have to force it.

More important for immersion (from roleplaying point of view) are the things on screen/graphics

• dynamic weather (and having NPCs react to the weather too)
  
• option to disable (parts of) "computer HUD" (e.g. have compass as an item I can look at instead of one on the screen),
  
• option to have no quest pointers,
  
• option not to have digital clock,
  
• allowing me to walk and look around without every living creature reacting only to me (and always attack on sight if not peaceful),
  
• having wild animals that don't attack the player (or only attack if the character is a threat to their nest/offspring/etc)
  
• pick flowers and place them to the window-side table at my house
  
• sit to a table at the inn and look out the window while sipping tea
  
• "immersive" gear in game, even if it's just a cloak on the back that looks like backpack

I have to agree fully, role-playing games are about playing a role!

A lot of the "hardcoe" talk on these forums is actually about increasing difficulties, not how much your character can play a role.
I am in full favour in increasing the difficulty of certain aspects of the game, after all, the hardest won victory is the sweetest (Hitman silent assassin rating, anyone?), but ultmately the Elder Scrolls is about freedom. Who you want to be how you want to be. Obviously this freedom is a difficult thing to achieve in any game on the scale of TES, yet something Beth has done brilliantly.

For me "immersion" has little to do with having to eat or drink but the depth of the world that the devs have created. A land I can wander at my own pace and discover the history and culture of as and when I wish. It's not so much the gameplay that immerses me but the setting.

That said, I am in full favour of a togglable "hardcoe mode". If you want to do it then do it, if you don't then don't. Who loses? B)

Regarding eating specifically - someone (if I remembered who, I'd give due credit) suggested, on another of the many threads on which it's come up, having a hunger/need to eat feature that mostly ran entirely in the background. That is - if your character was in town or somewhere where foraging was an option, it would just be assumed that s/he ate whenever and as often as necessary. It would only be an issue if s/he went somewhere where there was not going to be food available, in which case s/he would have to be sure to pack some. But still the actual eating part would go on entirely in the background - so long as there was food available, then the character would just consume however much of it was necessary to avoid starvation. So the only thing you'd have to do as a player is make sure that there was some source of food available, and potentially deal with the consequences of its lack. You wouldn't have to actually open a menu and click on a food item on schedule, which honestly is the part of the whole thing that I'm most wary of. Having to pay attention to food is a potential addition to the immersion of the game - having to click on a menu every few hours and "eat" a food item is just drudgery.

I think it would be really interesting to play a game like Oblivion or (eventually) Skyrim without ever saving. Imagine how much more intense it would be! You'd actually be afraid of encountering enemies, do your best to survive, remember to check your gear before you set foot outside of a town.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcE5wjCrQ1c&feature=related, I play games for fun. If you ever find yourself fully immersed in any game then it's time to step away from the monitor and have a long hard think about your life.

I recite the Realism Mantra everyday :biggrin: but i have to agree: Realism and Immersion are not the same.
Realism is adherence to objective reality, while immersion is suspension of disbelief.
In those gameplay domains that attempt to closely mimic our reality, Immersion is dependant upon Realism. If snow falls upwards or NPCs walk like soviet robots then immersion is at peril.
But in those domains that escape such duties, magic being one of them, it's plausability not realism that comes at play. Awckward spell casting animastions have the power to snap you out and bring you back to the brisk reality you're just playing a game.

Bottom line, hardcoe, which i favour, enhances realism, not (necessarily) mmersion.

for me a paper map and real compass (points north) and vague directions to my goal=immersion....but to each his own.

Of course the fact people svck at video games is the reason i dont get this ^ in my game.

I also play games for fun, and as for my life, I wouldnt change it for the world, I make great money working boats in the merchant marines, which means 12 hr days every day while im on the boat, and that is if nothing goes wrong, sometimes that will turn into an 18 hr day, but when I am off duty or at home for a month off from duty, I truly want to lose myself in my game world , it is what I enjoy doing, and it relaxes me like nothing else does, it makes no demands of me, it saves me money, and I am not responsible for real lives while I am doing it, If you dont need the same things as me, I applaud you, for knowing your own needs, (many do not) when I speak of immersion, I speak of (for myself anyway) a feeling of truly being there, like reading a book and it unfolding before you, as though you are watching it, or living it, like an engrossing movie can do to you, maybe we dont have the same type of focus ? dont know, but to tell me I might need to rethink my life, I think not ,.. only thing better would be to win the lottery in my book,...