I agree that realism, immersion, and difficulty are all different issues. But sometimes they interact, or a feature will touch on all three aspects.

I thought realism needs mods were insane when they started popping up for Morrowind and Oblivion. I was almost appalled at the idea that somebody would want to add pointless tedium to the game. After trying it in FONV, I at least partly came around. There are times (at least with mods) where you are weak from lack of food/water/sleep, or getting desperate to find a town, or any place with supplies ASAP. It significantly added to my experience of the game across all three aspects. For me at least, pretending that my character is happy to find a town versus actually feeling huge relief, because I didn't know if I would make it, are 2 very different experiences.

The whole survivalist theme makes a lot more sense in the FO universe, of course. I think it would take a lot more work to get it right in Skyrim.

When I read stuff like this I wonder where some want the "realism" stop. Perma death? Eating? Sleeping? Urinating? Cooking? six? Menses? Gallbladder attacks? Broken fingernails?

And I have to wonder why some think RPG means realistic?

I want dice rolls, stats, diplomatic ways to resolve quests, schedules for NPCs, interesting dialogue, good lore...

I want to be able to build my character as I see fit and see how he/she progresses through the game, I want consequences for my choices both in my build and in quest choices.

Of course I do love the little realistic props here and there but I think there is a limit to what I want to seem realistic.

I don't want perma death anymore than I want to fuss with menses in my game. There is no way I would accept a perma death after putting a couple of hundered hours into any game and if Skyrim is like MW or OB, I will put that many hours into it. My big concern is about removing some of my choices when it comes to stats and skills. :shrug:

What we're looking for here is not realism at all, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verisimilitude_%28literature%29.

Yeah, I didn't study film for nothing! :tongue:

Edit: Now linking to the correct definition, thanks to Kiralyn2000 for pointing that out. :foodndrink:

Immersion isn't about hardcoe vs. casual. It's about favored gameplay elements. Just because you like something to be realistic doesn't make you hardcoe

Say again?
Quote from the link you provided:



So we're talking about the same thing. Glad you agree.

there is a line between immmerision and just plain not fun. Some things I agree with, some I don't. It would take too long for me to write this morning where that line is acctually at. If I get the chance later I'll have to write an essay on where the line is at, for me at least.

Not really.

You don't need actual, literal, "realism" to get a "sense of realism". Especially since what it's also going for is just internal consistancy - the fantasy world of the game mostly needs to be consistant (i.e, "realistic" to it's own reality, not our own).


You also don't need lots of pointless micromanagement & busywork, in order to get a "sense" of realism - for it to feel realistic. (In art & writing, you can get poor marks for being too literally "real" - it's not considered, by some, to be the way to get verisimilitude. Depends on the artwork, style, and genre - and critic - of course.)


In fact, that wikipedia article might not be the best one to use, since it's about scientific theory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verisimilitude_%28literature%29, on verisimilitude in literature, is probably a better fit.



edit: "Believable" is probably a better term than "realistic". Since you don't need a game to match everything outside our window, in order for it to be believable. (Also, I agree with several of the other posters - adding food/water/sleep meters doesn't add believability - it just adds more silly game mechanics to pull you out of the experience as you micromanage more numbers.)

Are you writing on behalf of MacRiada?
My point was verisimilitude is implied realism, a notion that's pretty much consensual (as the link MacRiada himself provided would indicate). How it apllies to video games is another story.
I do agree that immersion is not a direct beneficiary of a harcore mode. And while i'd welcome such mode i won't go about twisting word definitions just to present my personal preferences as facts.

For money the best option would be to have gold, silver and copper coins, and have each coin weigh. 0.1 encumberance.
There would also need to be banks and bank notes.

In Daggerfall sleeping was required because it was the best way to replenish your fatigue.
I liked that.
Sleeping in the wild, not in an inn or tavern should be interrupted on occasion by a random hostile.

Ive said on other threads that I think locks should be able to be bashed open.
Its an option for warriors that obviously would attract more attention than the thieves sneaking and lockpicking. It would also damage your weapon quite a bit. Daggerfall style again, really.
Mages have open spells, thieves use lockpicks, warriors should have something too.

I like most of your ideas, and I agree that the last game kind of did it wrong in this roleplaying regard. Money.
It had no weight, you couldnt drop it, it wasnt money. It was a stat.
Resting. One hour replenished all stats, no interruptions. Thats simply lame.
Locks. No more unopenable locks please. Not in an open world game. There are other mechanisms to keep the player out of areas he isnt supposed to go yet. Secret doors that you need to be told about. Teleports. Magical barriers.

Ah thanks, a much better explanation. I will admit I didn't read the article I posted so didn't notice it was about scientific theory, not fiction. "Suspension of disbelief" is probably the best way to describe it.

Anyway, this is an argument about semantics (something I find too easy to start, being a language student), and not really to the point. The point is, how much is too much? How far do "hardcoe" players want to go?

About a New Vegas-esque "hardcoe mode"; it's something I'd love to see included and would most likely use it myself but I have a problem with it. The Mojave wasteland is just that, a wasteland. Trying to find food and water in the post-nuclear world can be difficult, which is why the hunger and thirst works. These needs push you on towards that shack on the horizon in the hope of finding some iguana bits on a stick to keep you going untill you reach town.
Skyrim, however, is not a post-apocalyptic wasteland. It's a fertile pre-apocalyptic province full of lakes, rivers and farms, meaning food and water are likely to be in abundance. If this is so then needing to eat and drink becomes a chore, not a matter of survival, because you'd be unlikely to be far from either (except maybe out in the tundra part of the map).

I'd welcome hardcoe mode but not perma death. For sure.
Please stop misrepresenting hardcoe apologists as one monolithic slab. I'm pretty confident there are just as many nuances and divergences between us harcore apologists as there are between us and those opposing hardcoe mode.

Isn't there a thread about this every day, just worded differently?

When I first posted this, I did not intend to put forth the idea that I am for all the features that I brought up, those are just features that have been brought up and I thought them pertinent to the post, I like realism as it has been described by a few others, realistic to a degree that allows me to personally feel as thought this world is alive, I like the idea of different monetary values and weight, realistic animals in this area (large horses should be out), thieves breaking into my house should be in, and a hardcoe mode available if I wish to use it, and shelter requirements in certain areas, I do not expect to get most these features if any of them and it will not spoil my enjoyment, but I would so love them to be in it. I do not expect other to agree with all I want so pls dont attack me personally for stating what I want ,.. AND PLS BEFORE SAYING NO TO THE THEFT OF HOUSE ITEMS , PLEASE READ BACK A FEW PAGES TO SEE HOW I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IT IMPLEMENTED, BEFORE YOU JUDGE THE IDEA TOO HARSHLY.