The true hard core RPG player wants immersion in their game and over the last few days I have been on many different forums and constantly have to deal with those people who clearly dont care about the true RPG experience, which IS total and absolute immersion whenever possible, I speak of things like making the monetary system in the game make sense, Thieves being able to break into our houses, what animals we should have available for riding as horses (at least big horses would be unlikely beasts for mountainous terrain), Shelter should be required at night when resting not just a bedroll in the wilderness, the option for true death of a character when killed, food and drink needs, ect,.... pls let me know what you as a hardcoe RPG player believes about such things, and if you wish to define yourself the aspects of a true hardcoe RPG player please do,... If you think it sets you apart from the casual player who seems to think every1 else is an idiot for wanting a true blue RPG hardcoe experience,....... Have at it friends.

You do have the opiton for perma-death. Don't load your last save.

I'd like the choice to need to eat and sleep. Injuries might be a good idea too. As for other things? There is such a thing as going too far.

Don't reload your save if you want perma death. This isn't the Witcher 2. Thankfully.

I consider myself a pretty "hardcoe RPG immersion" player. But at the end of the day, it's still a game, and it's possible that some features--while they may be very realistic and whatever--would break my immersion more than help it. It wouldn't break immersion in the sense of "oh, I'm playing a game, not living in this virtual reality" but rather "wow, that just happened and now I'm not having fun." Certain things have to be sacrificed for the sake of gameplay. If they made Skyrim as realistic as possible, it would not be a fun game.

Real life is not a fun game.

well technically the role playing of games can fit into the catagory of all most every game, certainly games where you manipulate a character, and by that literal since even mario bros. was a rpg. before your head explodes with indignation keep in mind what we have interpretted the phrase to mean now is typically originated from classic pen and paper rpg's.

however, alot of the suggestions the OP has sound less like aspects of playing a role ore creating a role to play and more like adding realism into the game to make it seem more immersive in a "thats not what would happen in real life" or "in real life this would happen" and I will conclude that TES is most admirably not real life. other people will deny it, but I Role play because I am an escapist and I don't want frivilous things like worrying about theives ruin my hours of dungeon looting worth of loot.

but I also respect his or her right to enjoy the game in the way they like, and for the unconvintional disires there are mods.

Put it this way; making your Sims go to the toilet is fun, making Dovahkiin go to the toilet is not. All about context.



Whoops! Looks like you've confused subjective opinion for objective fact.

I'm hoping some of the OP's suggestions will be included.

Really hoping for a better economy system, or at a minimum much higher merchant prices making it difficult to become rich.

After playing Oblivion with COBL Real Hunger, Real Thirst, Real Sleep Extended, as well as FNV with Harder hardcoe Rates mod and dying frequently from dehydration, etc., I am hoping most of all for something like this to be incorporated.

Ultimately, I imagine the devs will include some of these immersion features and do their best to balance the game, and then there will be mods created for the other popular immersion features or balance tweaks.

Personally, I don't feel a "perma-death" feature works for a huge open world Bethesda game where a large part of the experience has nothing to with the main quest and involves gradual character progression and world exploration over a period of hundreds or thousands of hours for a single playthrough. There's no "finish line" that you are trying to reach, as you would in a more linear game. I believe this will be even more true with Radiant Story implementation, since conceivably, you could keep playing the same character for years and experiencing new quests.

I personally dont believe that to be a true RPG player means permadeath, those are just the types of things I am looking for discussion on, I do believe in the shelter as necessary when in the wilderness (at least in the wilderness that is permafrost or the tundra, and when high in the snowy areas of the mountains), I also believe we should have other animals besides large horses for riding or using for pack animals in the colder and rougher areas of the map, (more like llamas or musk oxes or smaller hairy steppe ponies), and I believe strongly that the monetary system in the TES is just whack altogether, (I believe it should have weight and different denominations), I also believe that NPC thieves should be able to break into your home and steal COINAGE (and only COINAGE in certain smallish amounts and maybe plain weapons like a iron/steel dagger with no properties to them) for immersion purposes, but that they have a chance of being caught by traps/guards/city guards/yourself, (and what fun to find them dead on your floor when you come home or hanged from gallows or imprisoned), but if they get away they have a small chance being caught by authorities, but in most likely-hood they will just get away with their small amount of really unmissed loot.

I highly doubt Bethesda will ever include permadeath in an Elder Scrolls game.

Actually, I consider myself to be a very serious "roleplayer," but only some of the OP's demands interest me (more the ones dealing with NPC behavior than with "realism" restrictions). In spite of the fact that many consider things like having to eat and sleep "serious roleplaying," I don't. To me, "serious roleplaying" is the act of creating a unique, detailed, complex character and "playing" that "role."

My characters do what they do because they're the sort of people who would do whatever that is. If I understand that one of my characters would choose to do a particular thing, but I (the button-pusher) know for a fact that that choice is a bad one, that's just too bad. It's not my choice to make - the choice comes down to the character. When I've played a character enough to really get to know him/her and really understand what s/he believes and values and desires and dislikes and thereby what s/he is going to do in a given situation, then I just give the character his/her head and follow along as s/he does whatever it is that s/he is going to do, then, to me, I'm roleplaying to the fullest. Whether that character takes time out along the way to eat something or not is of virtually no importance to me at all. To me, that's not pertinent to the character - it's just something that goes on in the background, little different from breathing.

That said, I also recognize that different people consider different things to be "roleplaying," so my opinion of what it is and what it entails is only my own.

Is true that there is a point where it is too much realism to fun like a sims game, but I am not really looking for things like having to bathe or go bathroom, my ideas are more along with my last posting above, including my idea for thieves which I think is great without being too "immersive" or wreaking havoc with any1s stuff in their homes, my biggest gripe is the monetary system, it truly is flawed and makes no real sense, but I love TES and will play it with these small flaws and never gripe while doing so, this is just a what I wish for forum more then anything.

You are right in your opinion of my statement, I was too harsh in my own opinion, I dont in anyway wish to play the sims myself, so that statement should be when is it too much Immersion perhaps ? :foodndrink:

I agree with you on coinage, I'm sick to death of getting paid in "gold coins". I know they're "Septims" or "Drakes" but they're still gold coins. Gold is [censored] expensive, a peasant shouldn't be carrying 50 pieces on his person. Where about silvers and coppers?
A guinea (old British gold coin) was worth ￡1/1/0 (that's one pound and one shilling). There were 20 shillings to the pound and 12 pence to the shilling, also meaning 240 pence to the pound. Pennies could be further divided into half-pennies and farthings (a quarter-penny). Or this means that a single gold coin, the guinea, could also be represented by 1008 farthings.
I'm not saying Skyrim should use the British pre-decimal system, that would be awful, but it shows that a piece of gold shouldn't be the smallest unit. Although not a particularly fantastic RPG, Drakensang did this well.

Edit: No worries about my comment on opinion, I spoke too harsh. :foodndrink:

Yep
For me RP is about creating a character and basing their decisions on what they know and believe, not what I know and believe
Its not neccessarily about living every moment of their life
Some of the realism aspects like having to eat, sleep, find shelter I'll do if I'm RPing an explorer or a hunter say, but for my mage living in the city I'm not going to RP doing the shopping, cooking a meal etc

In my case, I don't really consider needing to eat, drink and sleep necessarily any more "serious" as far as roleplaying goes.

It's just that the challenge makes it more fun for me (on a personal level) when the PC suffers huge penalties or death for not eating, drinking and sleeping. After installing Harder hardcoe rates mod for FNV, I actually died from dehydration frequently, and spent most of the time running around suffering from reduced stats due to hunger, as I believe a character living in that sort of wasteland environment might actually experience. I'm going to install Arwen's Tw.eaks soon, which adds all sorts of features like, infections from wounds, disease and illness, etc.

In the case of Skyrim, it seems that deer and game will likely be plentiful, as well as fresh water from rivers and wells, but as I experienced with Oblivion after installing COBL Real Hunger, Real Thirst, Real Sleep Extended, implementing hunger, thirst and sleep functions actually give you a reason to be happy to find a small inn in the forest after hours of wandering, for example, or to find a creature with some meat. It really improved the Oblivion experience for me.

When the PC is so hungry that you need to steal some food in order to survive, it makes the game a lot more interesting for me. Of course, unless the economy system is balanced this becomes less interesting. I'm hoping either the vanilla game or some economy mod will make it extremely difficult to become rich.

It was far too easy to become rich in vanilla Oblivion, as well as FO3 and FNV.

we might have different denominations (regarding NV, although thats not necessarily granted since NV was mostly dev'ed by Obsidian)

thieves would not be able to steal coinage because you cannot place coins in any container, and its extremly unlikely that we will be able to in SK since the ability to do so was exploited in so many ways that by many opinions broke the economy of the game.

immersion is going to have different meanings and different qualities to different people, BGS normally leaves immersion nuetral becase what may be more immersing for some people will be immersion breaking to others.



it would be similar to having some one smash your console every time you died, metophoricly, because your console may as well be destroyed because there would be no way to get that character or the time you spent playing it back. which is why Permadeath is mostly unpopular.

I personally don't mind at all if a game isn't realistic. Because it's just a game. Something I do when I'm bored. Like borderlands is a really fun game I think and it's not realistic at all.

I also believe strongly that the food and drink at an inn should be more beneficial to rest, and should include certain (timed) perks to them like say blessings at shrines do, I would like to see my character actually eat or drink when they are supposed to, but that is just a wish it would be purely for my own enjoyment, not something I feel strongly about as a necessity to game play.

This is mostly true, but in Daggerfall you most certainly could drop coinage and get loans from banks for that matter, and I may be wrong about this, but couldn't you drop coins in Morrowind ? dont remember for sure, would have to go reload and play to check on that.

yes we could. I did not say we never could, we can't in OB and that was because there were serious (and possible game breaking depending on your opinion) exploits to dropping gold [won't spoil but, one of which involved being able to pay of a huge bounty for 0 gold] and its not very likly that dropping gold will be back. unless they diliberatly put the time and effort to let people drop gold and make sure that its every use in the game is not exploitable. or they will take the easier route and lock gold in inventory. good? bad? you decide, its not a big deal imo.

I want an economic system a really deep and advanced economic system WITH BANKS

I want WEIGHTED GOLD BUT i know how to NOT MAKE IT ANNOYING; Bank notes paper notes representing your amount of gold you give it to an NPC and then later the gold is taken out of your account problem solved, but weighted gold would add a need for banks and thus create that whole quest line and function of said banks. Also you'll need gold to buy hot items and not notes, ect and so on SO SO SO MANY Things you could do with weighted gold/banks.


I want NPC's that can sneak and use poisons efficiently Think of how cool this would be. oh no it makes the game harder, oh no i don't like it when NPC's get the upper hand i like to easily win at everything well i say....set the difficulty lower.

i would also like it if I can do it the NPC's can do it, also if I'm lvl 20 w/ x stats and x perks then NPC's of equal level and perk should have the same health ect that i do and if they have the same weapons as i do therefore; and it only takes 5 hits from me to kill them therefore it should only take 5 hits from them to kill me, AS IT IS ONLY FAIR. The game should not be imbalanced with a preferences towards the PC over NPC's.

Once again not to belittle your idea, but we did have this very option in Daggerfall with their banking system, also getting loans for the purchase of homes/boats/horses/carriages/wagons, but I digress we could get notes that supposedly merchants would annotate (right word ?) your purchases/exchanges on.

i think including a hardcoe mode would be fun with some options implemented in a similar way to NV but i dont think these things define necessarily serious or "hardcoe" role playing for me as others have said serious rping is allowing a character to develop naturally and for you to allow them to make decisions naturally. However thats just my view other people have other ideas of what rping entails and thats cool, thats also why these options are hard to implement as you cant please everybody :shrug:

It's my opinion that Bethesda should focus all of their development time on making the game as good as possible as a game, not as a life simulator. Then if a player decides they want realism, they can roleplay it in themselves. It's really not hard.

Decide your character needs to sleep? Find a bed every night. I do that already.

Decide your character needs to eat? Cool, keep some meat and potatoes in your inventory and eat some before bed and when you wake up. I don't do that because it would be annoying as hell.

Decide death is permanent? Delete your saves when you die. I definitely don't do that, really wouldn't be very fun with all the deadly mods I like to use.

Things like that can be added by modders later, because they are neither necessary to the game nor something the majority of players will use. I think if you need a developer or a mod to force you to do this or face consequences, maybe you shouldn't worry about doing it.

I'm not even going into how this has nothing to do with immersion, the whole forum is pretty much uses it in this sentence...


Anyway, "true immersion" is really not the wish of every "hardcoe RPG gamer", especially if they're like this.
Gameplay over Realism, it's hard to enjoy the realism for the sake of it if it's way too annoying. For example for true immersion you could stab yourself in the arm whenever you get hit.

I really don't see why we would need a better monetary system, or weighted gold just because of banks, it would be just way too annoying. Thieves breaking in would be worse than annoying, you just wouldn't buy a house and sleep in the wilds and inns. Houses should be safe havens, it loses it's meaning when it's safer to sleep in the wilds. True death has absolutely nothing to do with immersion.